Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: We Doin' Any Good Here?  (Read 6544 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show all replies
We Doin' Any Good Here?
« on: January 24, 2005, 01:28:08 AM »
Just wondering. There are a lot of ideas and opinions posted here day after day after day. Some are pretty good, some not so. People are so passionate about the Amiga, they sometimes forget common courtesy, and that each of us is a HUMAN BING on the other side of the computer screen. Now, having said all that, I just wonder, are we doing any thing good, or useful, or productive here, or are we all just venting? Anybody 'out there' in the industry taking our ideas, gripes and suggestions, and putting them to any use, or are we just a bunch of crabby 'oldsters' whining and complaining about the good old days, and secretly plotting each other's downfall, and the downfall of our various and sundry local governments? Which is it?
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show all replies
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2005, 10:19:45 AM »
Quote

Waccoon wrote:
Despite the fact any platform is defined by its software, Amigans spend way too much time arguing about form factors and technical supiriority.

Meanwhile, software platforms like Linux, Java, and arguably even Windows (since MS doesn't make hardware), have taken over practically everything, leaving Apple as the only true hardware company capable of surviving in the PC desktop industry.  Even Apple, though, must have a damned good OS and seek profits from other markets to survive, like iPod.

If AmigaDE ever makes its debut and delivers its promise to run on anything, Amiga might make it back into the mainstream market.  Otherwise, the Amiga is doomed to be what it has been since Commodore went under -- a hobby plaform that will continue to dwindle.

Yeah, we've actually got AmigaOnes and OS4 is around the corner.  What will we run on it?  5-year-old apps running on 68K emulation.  It would be nice if those good ideas involved designing new tools and apps, rather then what the next Amiga motherboard will look like.

Very few ideas I've seen around here are applicable to today's computer market.  Unless someone's idea involves rounding up hundreds of millions of dollars to make a new hardware platform that must be redeveloped every year, the only thing that can really be done is to get AmigaOS running on stock hardware, rebuild a small dev community, and then move on to other hardware options as the software starts to materialize.

Never underestimate the power of a geek with too much free time.  But, you can't make software if a platform is too expensive and too hard to acquire.  :-)


Hmm, some valid points here, but I think you strayed just a teensie weensie bit off topic.  :-) Ain't this another fight, on another thread, possibly instigated by yours truly?   :angel:
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show all replies
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2005, 03:54:55 PM »
Wowsers! That's a LOT to think about!  :cry:
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show all replies
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2005, 09:14:40 PM »
Quote

JetFireDX wrote:
I just want to ask, do we HAVE to be "doing something" tangible here? I read Amiga.org everyday, but I don't always post. Most of the time I hit forums too late and somebody has already stated the same thing I would say. But it is not because I feel like I personally need to be accomplishing anything, I just like to read about what others are doing and occasionally throw in anything I might know to help out. Thats enough for me. I think some of the people on here are real characters and can be funny as hell and then there are those that are overly sensitive. Everybody is who they are. Still, I think it is fun to come on and read the happenings of the day. If one person comes on needing help with their A500 they haven't touched in 12 years and they get their question answered, isn't that doing something? I certainly don't consider it a waste time, does anybody else? Now whether or not we are helping "move the platform forward" or not depends on the person and their personal views and what ideas/companies they support. I don't blame anybody to choosing one over another. That is no different that the Win vs Linux vs Mac argument. Use what works for you.

I will now go back to my usual viewing position in the shadows.

edit*** booya 200th post! :-D


Since I'm relatively new to the Amiga.org scene, AND I was (and am) one of the original old-time Amiga owners, I think that qualifies me to speak from both sides of the story - so to speak. As a 'newbie' returning to the  Amiga scene after many, many years, I was able to get lots of fast, friendly help, and advice from many of the posters here, that was extremely helpful, and really saved me a lot of time and head scratching (kudos here to my friend redrumloa, who spent way more time helping me, and advising me, than I deserved!). I was also able to learn stuff about the Amiga that I actually never knew - I don't think there's any other 'dead' platform that has such a vast, and still potent and alive support network, especially and including the Aminet archive. And, the coolest thing, most of the support (and software) is free. So, in that sense, yes, the community is very, very supportive, and even productive. But, on the other hand...

I've noticed a certain element of 'negativity' that, well-reflected on, and documented here, can't do anything, but, in the long run, tear the community down, which is what prompted me to write the original post. Now, truth to tell, some of the negative aspects of this forum, are actually common to almost all Internet-based forums and interactions: running the full gamut from extreme apathy (paradoxically, since it takes effort to post and read posts), to extremely passionate opinions concerning  hardware and software, bordering on hostility, and astonishing rudeness. Because of the nature of the forum form (basically, I can't see you, and you can't see me) people tend to be more willing to be rude and negative, not only with long-time online friends, but, even with complete strangers. I've seen this phenomenon with the online gaming community as well - the lack of direct human contact tends to breed  'bad' behavior, in some people.

But the issues of this forum run deeper.  There is a great sense of hurt, betrayal, and pain, evident even in those posts that are from the so-called ‘apathists’ (again, a contradiction of actions and terms, since, if you are apathetic, why bother to post). Just ‘whom’ has created this sense of betrayal is not really clear, at least, not to me. That’s because I, personally, came back to the Amiga for reasons somewhat different than those who actually ‘stayed’ with the Amiga, back during the Great Exodus to the PC platform. For me, and some like me, the original concept of the Amiga is forever frozen in time. I can’t help but still remember the Amiga for what it once was – almost like the memory of the childhood sweetheart that is jarringly different from what that person might actually look like ‘right now’. So, every one of my posts (especially, it seems, the most inflammatory, and controversial ones) are all based on that older image of the Amiga, and, of course, my humble projections of what it ‘could’ have been. In this, I have remained consistent throughout. IMHO, I think that those of the community who stayed around, and have been around since Day One, may have lost some of that original ‘child-like’ awe, and enthusiasm for the platform, and have now become disappointed, saddened, and embittered, (jaded) by all the corporate shenanigans cataloged here in these posts. I certainly know what they feel, since, when I was deep in the PC community, I’d hear, from time to time, how ‘such and such’ a company was going to resurrect the Amiga, gotten excited about it, only to be disappointed time and time again when they managed to fumble the ball over and over again. And, adding insult to injury, and salt to the wound, I’ve watched the ‘meager’ and ‘clunky’ PC, which couldn’t even play card games, for chrissakes (!) climb as a pretender to the throne, to computer supremacy. It’s enough to make anybody feel, sad, mad, and betrayed. I remember once, I really ‘snapped’ when I heard ‘industry wag’ John Dvorak (I’ve hated him ever since!) say Amiga users should quit ‘whining’ about how great the Amiga ‘used’ to be, and why it failed, and just get over it. That attitude of easy, and light dismissal of the Amiga by the entire industry only makes matters worse.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show all replies
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2005, 10:53:09 PM »
Quote

Wayne wrote:
@MiAmigo.

Well put sir.  You are correct.  There are a lot of people here who've had their hopes of a new platform sullied time and time again for over 10 years now.  As such, there are more than a few here who're both emotional and a little unrealistic about the subject...

Wayne


Obviously, there are several issues 'the community' needs to work out. A big one: wean ourselves off of, and away from specious 'parent company' developers, at least for now. Another one, less obvious: How about ridding ourselves of the idea that the Amiga (and its future) as a solitary platform, and start to see it more as a 'class' of computers. The other way around, we're never going to agree what the Amiga should be, since, seeing it as one type of machine is actually way, way too limiting for a machine of such vast potential. How about redefining the Amiga as a 'class', which would include different types of machines for different uses. They would share certain hardware and software elements, (such as OS and the most basic hardware), but from that point, be diversified into range of machine-types for home users, gamers, graphics, sound, etc. (Sort of like what Commodore did with the A1000 – A400, but less sporadic, and less schizophrenic).

And, why aren't we challenging, on this very forum, the 'smarts' of the people who seem to spend way too much of their day on forums (!). There really are a lot of extremely smart, uber-intelligent and well-informed people who seem content to only shooting down other people’s ideas, and infighting with their peers. Maybe there should be a way that could put that brain trust to good use. What if there was a specifically a forum set up just for proto-typing, designing and hammering out the specs of various aspects of the different machine types within the newly formed 'Amiga' class. Then, we really would be doing some good here. And, as I said in another post, this part of it (conceptualization and design) really doesn't cost anything, and it could actually produce something productive and concrete, which, if well conceived enough, might actually attract a parent company worth something. We, and we alone, can save the Amiga, or let it die.

P.S. I hope my meager suggestions don’t inadvertently start a flame war! :nervous:
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show all replies
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2005, 11:36:58 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote
And, why aren't we challenging, on this very forum, the 'smarts' of the people who seem to spend way too much of their day on forums (!). There really are a lot of extremely smart, uber-intelligent and well-informed people who seem content to only shooting down other people’s ideas, and infighting with their peers. Maybe there should be a way that could put that brain trust to good use. What if there was a specifically a forum set up just for proto-typing, designing and hammering out the specs of various aspects of the different machine types within the newly formed 'Amiga' class.


One word:

Money


-Pink Floyd-



I think I see what you mean. So, say we developed, after several months, a new super-class of Amiga computers, and some part of them, or maybe even all of them, became highly do-able, and marketable. Would we then be reduced to fighing over who actually created the thing, and should get the kudos, credit, and monetary gain? Say it ain't so! Would we actually let that kill any chance the Amiga has, which, maybe, lies more here, on this forum (and forums like it), than anywhere else? Mein Gott! :-o
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show all replies
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2005, 12:15:24 AM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

MiAmigo wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote
And, why aren't we challenging, on this very forum, the 'smarts' of the people who seem to spend way too much of their day on forums (!). There really are a lot of extremely smart, uber-intelligent and well-informed people who seem content to only shooting down other people’s ideas, and infighting with their peers. Maybe there should be a way that could put that brain trust to good use. What if there was a specifically a forum set up just for proto-typing, designing and hammering out the specs of various aspects of the different machine types within the newly formed 'Amiga' class.


One word:

Money


-Pink Floyd-



I think I see what you mean. So, say we developed, after several months, a new super-class of Amiga computers, and some part of them, or maybe even all of them, became highly do-able, and marketable. Would we then be reduced to fighing over who actually created the thing, and should get the kudos, credit, and monetary gain? Say it ain't so! Would we actually let that kill any chance the Amiga has, which, maybe, lies more here, on this forum (and forums like it), than anywhere else? Mein Gott! :-o


:lol: maybe...

No, the big problem is that no matter what we can come up with there is always going to be a company who can spend huge sums of money to do it better and get there before us... and there is several companies competing in each of the areas we would have to cover...



Well, the obvious question is: Why ain't they done it, yit? I think they can't, because of the restrictions of what I'll call 'anycompanypolicy' which is the same thing that hamstrings those of us who'll let it: "Ooh! This can't be done, that's not economically do-able, we-can't-create-or-depend-on-a-possible-market for this'. And they never will. That's why, every time some company claims to assume the Amiga brand, they come up with some hare-brained, but what they consider to be more marketable, approach to how to handle the machine. They're afraid. True entrepreneurs shouldn't be. To me, the only difference between technology and magic is what you can allow yourself to conceive, and, ultimately, believe. It’s a philosophy that has served me well.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show all replies
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2005, 01:59:23 AM »
Quote

KD7HTH wrote:
Quote

TheMagicM wrote:
My sentiments exactly JetFireDX.   This is just a hobby.  I could care less what happens to the new breed of Amiga's (Pegasos/A1).  The real Amiga's are the classic Amigas...thats what this site is about.. a bunch of us Amiga fanatics hanging out, talking about what we're doing with our classic.  If something new happens to be developed for our classic system, great, if not..we'll continue on with what we have.  C=64 users are a perfect example (like me! LOL) of continuing on despite of technological advances. hehe

-Alex


Touche` Bro!!


Hey, I'm a huge fan of classic Amigas, too. Its why I'm here. And, my views on the current crop of Amiga-wanna-bees is well documented elsewhere on this forum. But, I also would hate to see the type of innovation that spawned the original Amiga die out because of incompetence, and lack of vision and creativity, and yes, guts. So, I want to have my cake, and eat it, too. I want my classic Amiga, which I have, and I also want the Amiga to move forward into the future, cuz I'm just stubborn, that way.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show all replies
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2005, 02:17:37 AM »
Quote

TheMagicM wrote:
Quote
And, my views on the current crop of Amiga-wanna-bees is well documented elsewhere on this forum.  But, I also would hate to see the type of innovation that spawned the original Amiga die out because of incompetence, and lack of vision and creativity, and yes, guts.


if you're referring to the A1 and (almost defunct) Pegasos, I wouldnt call them wanna-bees.  The both kick the classic Amiga's butt.  There is just a lack of software.   Its a very difficult road for the A1 and even more trecherous (sp?) for the Pegasos.  In the end..there can be only one.  Our community, like its been said before, cannot support two "Amiga" computers.  Sad to say..even for me because I still have some love left for MOS.  

@Wayne:
 :-P   I guess being too much Pro-Pegasos caused some irritability...I'm over it and am looking at things without the blinders on.  (Not caused by the Peg users or MOS faithful..but by you know who.)



I agree totally. Its also why I suggested a new set of 'Amiga' class computers.