potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP

[Louis Dias]

Waccoon wrote:

Other than the setup screen to set the time and play with the memory cards, it just looks to boot from disc. I believe it's all of 32k...

You yourself said there's no BIOS.  I suppose this "32K" just magically appeared?

It's not a traditional BIOS in the sense you are thinking of.  An OS wouldn't look to it for any low-level stuff.  It's just what you see when you turn on the GC without a disc.  It all hits the metal directly to save space.  A HAL for a licensed OS4 wouldn't look at it for anything.  All drivers are booted from a game disc which was actually my original point when I said it didn't have a bios than needed to be studied.

I will reiterate that 40MB is more than enough to run the OS4 kernal and some apps. I believe Hyperion has commented on the kernal size on this site quite some time ago incase someone wants to look it up.

I will reiterate that kernel size has nothing to do with memory consumption.

No but name me one OS loads every system file into memory as well as has a huge chunk of the file system cached in RAM before it can function.  That's the only reason you would need alot of RAM.  Even Windows 95 booted with 16MB of RAM.

If you concede my marketing points are valid, why must you knit-pick me to death on hardware comments I've made?

Hardware != marketting.  That's why.  Dreamers tend to forget that

Also, I didn't say your marketting points are valid.  You should also learn the meaning of the word "may.".

How is hardware marketing.  In order to market this, why would a consumer care about the hardware challenges that WERE involved in getting the product created?  They just want something that they load up and it works.  

Yes, I know: you 'may' never admit my points are valid.

I have been a business applications and database developer for 4 1/2 years. Sometimes on paper things look simple and coding them ends up being a pain in the arse...and sometimes things look difficult on paper and they end up easy. That's just how it is with coding. You don't know until you do it. Why not try?

I'm a database programmer, myself.  I do other programming, too, but you wouldn't be interested.

Now if the other programming you do was OS4 porting, I would most certainly be interested.

Ofcourse it needs to be rewritten from scratch for another platform. You have a HAL and that's all you rewrite and then you can recompile with the rest of the OS and voila - OS4 on another platform.

You don't rewrite a HAL, you modify it.  If each platform doesn't have a common set of features (as PCs and consoles do not), porting the HAL eventually boils down to emulation.

I think we can both agree that the GC and A1 are different enough that the HAL would have to be MOSTLY rewritten.  Obviously the functions it presents to the OS would have to be the same but the implimentation is targeting different hardware.  I don't agree on the emulation issue.

The primary fault of my idea is that one(or some) of the OS4 partners only want to see OS4 on the A1. What you think is possible or impossible means nothing.

Even hardware compatibility?

[/quote]

Is a Cyberstorm compatible with an A1?  Would a Pegasus be? NO.  But the OS-compliant software should be.  Like I said before, I'm sure you don't specify whether your MAC runs a G3 or G4 when you purchase apps for your MAC...(remember your so-called binary incompatible core faux-issue).

[Louis Dias]

Zorro wrote:

ottomobiehl wrote:

I really love your idea and I think that it would be a cool if it were implemented

I fully agree...

It would be a true dream if all the amigans could get cheap hardware to run the OS4 candy...

Yes, any cheaper more modern alternative would be great.  I just already own a Gamecube and will own Revolution so that is my preference.  Plus I certainly don't want to see Amiga running on Microsoft hardware (except as WINUAE).

[Louis Dias]

Even I know it won't happen but neither was OS4 or A1.  It was an overall expression of desire from the community that made something happen.

The big problem here is a hardware design was determined and then an OS was designed around it instead of the other way around.  If the leg work on the OS had been done first, the target hardware would be more current and we might actually want to pay a pretty penny for it.

[Louis Dias]

Off-topic:  Can't wait for the new Zelda on GC!  I'm almost done with Resident Evil 4 - amazing game!

[Louis Dias]

Resident Evil 4 is THE GAME to own on the Gamecube.  It shows the true power of the Gamecube.  It has to be played to be believed.  Anyone who plays it would clearly see why this platform has the power to host the Amiga OS.

[Louis Dias]

Yes, Metroid Prime 2 was actually tied or sole runner-up to Game Of The Year (which was Half-Life 2) across all platforms for 2004 in various printed and online magazines.  Who would have 'thunk' it?  Too bad it was released the same week as HALO 2...

[Louis Dias]

ottomobiehl wrote:

Too bad it was released the same week as HALO 2...

I can say with great pride that I have never played HALO 2.  For that matter, I've never played the original HALO.  I would never buy an Xbox.  I don't know how Microsoft spent all of that R&D money to come up with basically an underpowered PC.

Only to switch to a completely new platform.  Microsoft's dev kits for XBOX 360 are PPC Macs.  How sad for them.  Who knows, maybe we'll see a PPC Windows again...  Oh yey, something to look forward to...NOT!

[Louis Dias]

ottomobiehl wrote:

Oh yey, something to look forward to...NOT!

 :roflmao:

or maybe OSX on an the PC. :-)

Microsoft's dev kits for XBOX 360 are PPC Macs.

You know, I had heard this and I thought that the irony was incredible.  I'm sure that they are using OSX for the OS on those Dev macs too.

Given Apple's policy, they don't have much of a choice.

[Louis Dias]

coldfish wrote:

It makes me wonder how much clout Bungee, (being M$'s golden child) have over the Xbox2/360 development devision? (considering they originally come from an Apple background)...

Irony?  Or is IBM multicore PPC tech just fast, versatile and cheap?

Anyone remember when Atari LYNX games were developed using Amigas?

I just like games, regardless of the hardware.

I also heard they had officially given up PPC NT support.  I wouldn't be surprised if the were just using Metrowerks' Code Warrior (just like PS2 and Gamecube) on the MAC and opengl in order to get more cross-platform games that would come out on the PS2/3 first...

Weren't SEGA Genesis/Masterdrive games rumored to be developed on the Amiga?

[Louis Dias]

A quick note about Nintendo:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7848

Also, Nintendo only lost the #2 spot this Christmas shopping season due to the spurred sales of people wanting to play HALO 2.  Up until then, Nintendo has been #2 worldwide the whole time despite what Microsoft will tell you.  Also, for the fiscal year ending March 31 in 2004, Nintendo was and still is the second largest producer of video games on the planet...second only to Electronic Arts.

You can also look here: http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=4645
for some Japanese year (as of March 27, 2005) to date hardware sales.

I don't doubt that Microsoft has given developers a "Visual Studio" package that compiles Mac applications.  Don't they own 20% of Apple anyway?  The point of using the Mac specific version is that it's a G5 and that's about the performance they can expect from the X360.  So I don't believe they are running WinXP on the Mac at all.  Microsoft does sell MS Office to the Mac platform.  It was part of the investment deal back in '97 I think.

Microsoft has given developers something fast and now and even alot of Japanese developers who have shunned the original XBOX are taking notice.  They are hoping to be first to market with the 'next-gen' consoles hoping to grab market share like they feel Sony did with the PS2.  What I feel (yes my own opinion) is that they didn't look far enough back in history..ie...Dreamcast.  SEGA was first to market and their technology was perceived as inferior to what was coming next (even though it was right on par with the PS2).  Rumor has it that X360 is sticking with the 4.7GB DVD format and will not include a harddrive (although one can be added on, developers are being encouraged not to count on it or make it mandatory).  So the PS3 with have a media advantage and power advantage since Sony is using Blue-Ray and Cell.  

The dark horse is Nintendo.  What I've read so far is that once again an existing chip (G5) is being enhanced per Nintendo specs (just like the G3 was) and it will include a 15GB hard drive.  Not to mention no-fee online play features and built-in Wi-Fi capabilities.  This CPU is called 'Broadway'.

It will also act as a hub for the Nintendo DS handheld to allow it to go online for free as well.

So I see Nintendo in the middle again on the 'power' levels but will offer free online play and a new unique user interface.  It will be backwards compatible with GC software and controllers as well.  It seems like Nintendo learns from it's mistakes and competitors quickly.

Also, since ATI got shafted by Microsoft this generation, I don't see them delivering a better chipset to Microsoft over Nintendo.  Again, Nintendo is getting a customized version...  This GPU is called 'Hollywood'.

Broadway and Hollywood, the center of stage and film.

There are too many +'s to own Revolution over the other sytems.  The only real reason to own some other system for the next-gen is to play some exclusive titles.  As far as first party games, Nintendo has them all beat hands down.

[Louis Dias]

Waccoon wrote:

Question:  if the consoles are so powerful, why are console development systems always conventional PCs and workstations?

It's not a question of power but a question of software.  Development tools exist on PC's so why reinvent the wheel.  Afterall, compilers aren't just limited to compiling for the cpu they are currently running on anymore...

SEGA was first to market and their technology was perceived as inferior to what was coming next (even though it was right on par with the PS2).

SEGA just didn't drive enough hype for the platform.  SEGA's dev kit was one of the best in the industry and the hardware itself was very clean.  Early PS2 titles looked like crap next to Dreamcast titles, and even newer titles still suffer from shakey textures and other artifacts.  I was very disappointed how easily the magazines wrote-off Dreamcast.

I always felt it was the way they divided their fan-base...do you buy a 32X or a Saturn...then 6 months later announce Dreamcast as right around the corner...

It seems like Nintendo learns from it's mistakes and competitors quickly.

N64 struggled a lot and Gamecube didn't really improve on that.  Nintendo had better have a very convincing lineup when the system is officially unveiled, or it will get burried under the unsurmountable hype machine that prevented people from buying Dreamcast.

[/quote]

Sony did a similar stunt with the PS2 like they did with the PS3 in February when they demoed the 'Cell'.  It was the 4.6GHz version that they used to 'wow' the crowd and strike fear of owning a 'weaker' system.  Anyone in there right mind knows that the PS3 won't sport a 4.6GHz version let alone the 10-core version...  They did something like this with the 'emotion engine' as well right around the time the Dreamcast was being released...

Well, what Nintendo learned with the N64 was to make a low cost system with an easy API.  The GC has been a money maker for Nintendo.  Nintendo also sports the quickest load times...I guess that was another thing they continued to do right...(yes, I know it was cart on N64 but I mean compared to Saturn and PS1 and the GC to the present systems as well).

[Louis Dias]

coldfish wrote:

Among developers, there's a lot less negativity and confusion surrounding Xbox-360, compared to this stage in Xbox's development.

I regretfully agree. [die MS die]

As for Xbo-360 lacking Blue-Ray tech, I'm not fussed, I dont really want to have to buy my entire DVD collection all over again.  Besides, it still remains to be seen how well Blue-Ray will do against HD-DVD in the mainstream video market, cough* -betamax- cough!

But supposedly, X360 is using it's current DVD format, not HD-DVD.

At the moment I pity Sony's cell/PS3 SDK programming team.

This is another Nintendo advantage - maintaining the same API as the Gamecube for Revolution.  Developers have already responded quite favorably to this.  I just hope Nintendo does go with HD-DVD just to have another edge over XBOX360 and hang with Sony on the media department...  No official word there yet.  Can't wait for E3!

[Louis Dias]

adolescent wrote:


Yes, they lost it, and have yet to gain it back.  All indications prior showed MS and GC in dead heat with Sony waaaaaay out front.  Remember, we're talking about console only, not handheld.  The only reason Nintendo can continue to operate they way they do is because of Gameboy sales.  (ie. failures like Virtual Boy and Gamecube would likely bankrupt a lesser company)

If a system makes the company money (like the GC did) how can it be called a failure?  Maybe they didn't quite reach the target # of units but they didn't lose the hundreds of millions that Microsoft did/is.  Nintendo profited from GC sales.  Even at $125, the system was making a profit for them on sales of the console.  Even Sony was able to make a profit or minor loss on sales of the console.  That's another reason MS is first out of the box with a new machine.  That's another reason why x360 won't include a harddrive or go to HD-DVD - to cut costs.

As for the online play, I'll believe it when I see it.  In the case of the GCN it was a waste because the small number of games that supported it.

I wouldn't doubt some sort of advertizement scheme when you 'go online' or just charging an extra $20 for a game that you can play online as sort of a one-time fee per game.  The network is being developed by Gamespy.  If Nintendo says free, that means I won't have to pay a monthly fee to play online.  It doesn't mean that they won't sell upgrade and extra maps like with Xbox Live...all I can say is that there will be no monthly fee to play across the planet.

See above.  Had they used standard wifi you could do this now, not have to wait for the service to be available.  I play Twisted Metal free now on my PSP using my home router.

The DS does support 802.11B but no games are taking advantage of it yet as the network backbone is still being developed.  Hey, how do you like buying 8 copies of a game in order to play against 7 of your near-by PSP-owning friends?  Not so on the DS, everyone just downloads it from the one with the copy and all can join in on the fun.  Advantage - Nintendo.

Define "quickly".  This is Nintendo's first home console with backwards compatibility.  I wouldn't say 20+ years is quick.

It's obvious you are just a Nintendo-hater.  That's fine, I'm an admitted MS-hater but I can still look at things objectively.

The big -'s are that it doesn't exist.  So, you shouldn't bet on a winner this early in the game.  

As for first party games, if you want to play yet another Mario game, then sure.  But, Nintendo puts out lots of stinkers (Luigi's Mansion, Star Fox Adventures, WarioWare, etc.?) using their licensees.  If we were talking strictly about the GCN, then you could say the only reason to buy a GCN would be to play a few exclusive titles.

Revolution will exist...Just more hate on your part.  F-Zero, Mario Kart, Metroid Prime 1 & 2 - did you forget those?  Excellent games.  MP2 was runner-up to game of the year across many a magazine.  Fire Emblem?  Star Fox Assault is kick ass.  S F Adventures was an excellent game but varied from the traditional S F formula and that's the only bad thing anyone can say about it.  Also, Nintendo has stated that it will start NEW franchises, more 'adult' ones on Revolution.  Oh lest not we forget Zelda.  This coming holiday season will see Link in all his glory and only on the Gamecube.

And yes, Mario 128 will be a launch title and it will kick ass and break ground like Mario 64 did.

[Louis Dias]

adolescent wrote:

lou_dias wrote:

It's obvious you are just a Nintendo-hater.  That's fine, I'm an admitted MS-hater but I can still look at things objectively.

You look at things objectively?  Not so far.

Not sure where the "Nintendo-hater" came from.  I have a huge collection of Nintendo products from the NES to GCN (including Japanese systems like a SFC, the Panasonic Q, etc.) as well as a ton of games both US and Japanese.  I don't know where the hate comes in when I'm just stating a fact.  They have never had a backwards compatible home console system, FACT!

Every opinion I've had, I've given my reasoning behind it.  I've even referenced articles when possible.

Re-read your previous post.  It's just one giant Nintendo diss.

The specs are hardly finalized enough to have any idea of how good the system and/or games will be and how it will stack up against other consoles in development.

This can be said of xbox360 and ps3 as well

Again, try reading the message, not looking for some secret meaning.  Sure, they have some good games, every console does.  But, Nintendo tends to take it's licensed characters and make bad sequels to games.  SFA is a perfect example.  It was originally a N64 game (or DD, I can't remember) that was cancelled, needing GCN games, Nintendo repackaged it with Starfox characters and the result was just not that special.

Maybe you never played the game... I have (and beat it) and like I said before, the only 'flaw' it had was the fact that it didn't follow the prior Star Fox formula which debuted on the SNES.  It is an excellent game in it's own right.

And yes, Mario 128 will be a launch title and it will kick ass and break ground like Mario 64 did.

Pure speculation, since nobody has ever seen a single frame of the game running.

Nintendo has announced this already.  What does you not seeing a frame have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Louis Dias]

Waccoon wrote:

If consoles are just as powerful as PCs, as you contantly uphold, then there should be no re-inventing of the wheel.

So Nintendo should be using an original NES to create Gamecube software then?

lou, aimed at adolscent:  It's obvious you are just a Nintendo-hater. That's fine, I'm an admitted MS-hater but I can still look at things objectively.

Objectivity requires research, not heralding a system that has yet to be officially displayed.  Really, I think people should stop yakking about the next gen systems until al least after E3.

I have been objective.  I have given plain reasons for choosing Revolution over the other 2.  Also, I think MS has some great products.  I love Visual Studio.net and Office is excellent as is SQL Server.  I just don't like their business practices.  I think the XBOX is an under-powered PC and I alread own a PC.  I think Win2000 is the best OS they've put out yet - to heck with XP.

Oh lest not we forget Zelda. This coming holiday season will see Link in all his glory and only on the Gamecube.

And yes, Mario 128 will be a launch title and it will kick ass and break ground like Mario 64 did.

That's nice, especially since nobody knows anything about these games.  May we get back on topic?

You'll know more at E3.  And they are 2 excellent Zelda trailers available: http://www.nintendo.com/gameminiav?gameid=54610f14-1826-4d46-9981-8f72874aee2e&

adolscent:  They have never had a backwards compatible home console system, FACT!

I'm rather surprised that it took this long for any of the consoles to have any form of backwards compatibility.

I'd like to see when older titles will actually run better on new hardware.  This is still where all forms of PCs excell.  Software techniques on consoles are just not advanced enough these days.

Ditto.  But I suspect this may happen with Revolution and GC.

If I hear any more about how Cell is "revolutionary", I'm going to puke.  The PS3 is still going to have a seperate GPU to do most of the work -- just like any other console.

I wonder how many people realize the overhead involved when working with so many cores?  I don't expect performance to be anything special.

I agree.

To get back on-topic.  Since Revolution will use the same API as the GC, any work that could have been done on the GC port of AOS4 could have simply carried-on and continued for Revolution with less of the complaints about hardware capabilities...and you'd really have a system with modern hardware for way less than $1000.

[Louis Dias]

adolescent wrote:

lou_dias wrote:
Hey, how do you like buying 8 copies of a game in order to play against 7 of your near-by PSP-owning friends?  Not so on the DS, everyone just downloads it from the one with the copy and all can join in on the fun.  Advantage - Nintendo.

Some more facts for you...

- Not all games will support "DS Download Play" single game card multiplayer, some games still need copies for each player.
- Of the games that do support it often they don't offer the complete game in multiplayer. (ie like GBA single pak multiplayer)
- PSP games like THUG and Twisted Metal DO support this (un-oficially)
- PSP works on wireless LAN/hotspot NOW (not in development, promised, etc.  NOW!)
Advantage - PSP

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7885

Considering the hype... If you look at Japanese sales, the PSP is losing ground again.  http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=4645
Keep in mind that these are 2005 stats and don't include the launch of the DS in Japan. (sold over 500,000 at launch)

Advantage - Nintendo