I'll say this again... "The PS2 is "compatible" with PSX games, but you can't take advantage of any of the PS2's new features. You also can't run old-gen and new-gen software at the same time"
To do those things, you NEED some sort of emulation. Games don't need to do those things. PCs do.
I suppose if you only play games on your Amiga all day, that's fine, but then, there's always WinUAE.
I'll say this again. PS2 includes the exact same hardware as PS1 in order to run PS1 software. If it was a software emulation then 'enhancements' could be patched in. Iwata (Nintendo president) has stated in his keynote address at the GDC 10 days ago that development kits for Revolution will be familiar to current GC developers. That leads me to believe that the API's will be similar. If you go to Metrowerks's site on CodeWarrior for the Gamecube, you will notice that is was used to write the Gamecube's OS. All game machines have an OS. Some disk-based games on classic Amigas loaded a subset of the Amiga OS that they needed for the game. For the games that 'hit the metal' themselves, those are the ones with compatibility issues. I can't tell you exactly why Revolution will be backwards ompatible but since Nintendo is sticking with IBM and ATI it could be hardware-backwards compatible but I wouldn't rule out a software emulation that could enhance certain 3D graphical effects like PS1 and N64 software emulators do on the PC.
I'm talking about Amigas not PC's
"PC" means Personal Computer. If you look at the Amiga as a console, no wonder you think Gamecube is adaquate.
I've been on this site long enough to know that when someone says 'PC' they mean a Wintel box. Yes the Amiga is a personal computer but to me it's an Amiga, not a PC. I don't know why you keep ignoring the Amiga's game-machine roots. Every Amiga built was designed like a game machine. Only the A1 has a 'PC' architecture. Oh and isn't the A1 running PPC Linux? Funny, so is the Gamecube.
http://www.gc-linux.orgYou are being silly. You just stated that you are only familiar with the PS2. The PS2 has the longest load times of the 3 systems.
So? You're focusing too much on the hardware itself and not on usage. Even the best hardware in the world is crap if you use it incorrectly. The Gamecube's CD drive is really no different than any other mini-disc drive, and saying it would get blazing performance due to low seek times is myopic, especially with the unit's very, very small memory cache. The unit was designed to stream data, not work with a filesystem.
Actually the PS2 and XBOX stream data faster than the Gamecube. As I've stated before, where the Gamecube excells is when loading many different files in succession. It's faster spinning, lower average seek time drive is what brings down loading times of many games. Again that depends on the design of the game/application. An OS consists of many files and GC games come to a start/options menu quicker that the other 2. The GC has an OS that comes on every disc not built-in to BIOS.
Please quote me some REAL numbers here. You make it sound like reading an SD memory card is a slow as a C=64 floppy
It can be if it's not done right. It depends how flexible the controller bus is on the Gamecube, and I'd have to look at the Gamecube hardware docs to know that. Since you're the expert on the hardware, what's the throughput of the controller bus, are the busses independent?
used Gamecube at Electronics Boutique $60
Oh, so now you're basing your prices on used and Ebay'd hardware?
Is there something wrong with that? The GC is a sturdy system. Mines has fallen onto a wooden floor from a height of 2 1/2 feet on 3 seperate occassions and still works flawlessly. I have no qualms about purchasing a used GC. Also, you can buy 'new' hardware on Ebay from retailers who are looking to liquidate there inventory. I picked up Final Fantasy:Crystal Chronicles w/GBA link cable brand new in a plastic sealed box for $26.90 shipped.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8171712647&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:ITThat's about 1/2 price if I had bought it locally brand new. So what's your issue with Ebay or E.B.?
Also, about the memory card bus...I know on Mario Party 6, a microphone is plugged into the memory card port for the mini-games that offer voice recognition... So it would seem that the only reason to 'stop everything' to read/save to an actual memory card is to make sure the user knows not to pull it out or turn off the power will saving. Just common sense.
for the low low price of $1044 you get:
Crap, but that's what you need to run OS4, legally. I could build a comparable system on the PC for less than $275 -- a lot less if it's used. That would blow away the Gamecube and be a "real" computer to boot, with PCI expansion, no hacks to add hardware, and the ability to do things that many modern PCs should do, like... burn CDs.
Hey, I'm all about doing it legally. I think Hyperion and Amiga Inc. should get this license. Then Eyetech could design an SX-1-like addon to give you your IDE, usb, etc... The 81MB/second transfer rate of the GC's high speed parrallel port is no joke.
The Flipper outperforms the Radeon 7000.
Again, you're droning about the performance of the hardware, not the usage. Also, OS drivers are very different from console drivers, but I already discussed that.[/quote]
Come on now. You don't think that an ATI chip designed for a game console doesn't have optimized drivers? How is using an API for graphics on a game different from using is in another application such as a gui for an OS?
I know one of you has a 'business' to maintain and justify.
What would that be?
billt - Bill Toner of Forefront Technologies who wrote the Radeon 7000 driver and sells it with the A1 for $1044.
All I see is constant bugs and patches and delays and outdated technology being sold for over-inflated prices.
How would Gamecube fix that? Bugs and pathces are the result of development practices and flawed software design. The limited flexibility of Gamecube's architecture wouldn't make running "AmigaCube" software any easier on Revolution without a lot of emulation.
If Eyetech, Amiga and Hyperion got together and went to Nintendo and got a license.
I wish them luck, especially seeing how Nintendo bleeds lots of money on those machines and would want a hefty licensce fee. You're not taking that into account when you spew prices, of course.
The GC was/is a profitable console. The current GC costs about $107 to make and they sell it for $99. Originally it sold for $250, then $225, then $199, then $175, then $150 and finally $99. That price has only been in effect for the last year. How much of a license fee is part of a $49.99 title? You must think that publishers pay a $100 license fee per game and only sell it at $49.99...does that make sense? Also, license fees are negotiable. They are usually based on units sold. Either way, I don't see the average license fee being outside of the $5-$10 range per unit sold and is built into the $49.99 price. As a consumer, a license fee is irrelevant to me when I buy a game at $49.99. It's up to Hyperion and Amiga Inc. to negitiate a license fee, not me and you. Either way that will be built into the cost of the OS when you purchase it.
Lots of people see faults in the road, but Amigans are famous for hair-brained ideas that aren't future-proof. Also, you're overlooking a lot of hidden costs. The Mac Mini is quite comparable to a game console. Gee, there must be a reason it costs a minimum of $500 without a monitor, keyboard, or mouse.
I don't believe Apple will be handing out a license to run another OS on there machine. So the Mac-mini is not a legal option.
(On Revolution): ...it will all still cost well under $1000.
So? How many other platforms are less than $1000? This isn't the 1980's, anymore, though Hyperion seems to think so.
Well, the XBOX 360 will not included a hard drive so that figures to be the least expensive of the 3 next gen consoles...but like the Apple issue, I don't think MS will hand out a license to run another OS on the platform. I can't believe any next-gen console will cost more than $500 initially...and they will be coming with fast and modern hardware.
It's direct hardware banging on the APPLICATION-level that we need to get away from. That's what an API is for.
Is this why you roasted me many posts ago that Gamecube are designed to hit the metal, and that was a good thing that made them so damned efficient?
Actually my point is that the API's you get with the GC dev kit are as close to hitting the metal as you want to be. I believe it's these API's that will let Revolution be backwards compatible with GC. That goes back to Iwata's statements about a familiar development environment for Revolution to current GC developers. Nintendo knows the value of a system that is easy to program for. The N64 was not but the GC is as will be Revolution.
Name me one desktop application that really needs 100% cpu utilization in order to run at all on today's modern hardware?
Process management is what the OS is for. But, process management only works if the hardware *and* APIs are designed to run in user mode. They are not, so Amiga would have to write their own APIs that use GC APIs like drivers, and that would be a real mess.
The only API's from the GC that Hyperion would need is the graphics, sound, controller port, memory card port, LAN port and other I/O like the high speed port. This is all part of the HAL that they had to write for the A1. The kernal/process management part is part of the OS and is just PPC code (compiled 'C') that is already written. My point about porting OS4 to the GC is that all that need to be rewritten should be just the HAL (hardware abstraction layer).
I'll bet there are more Gamecube owners here than A1 owners.
I don't suppose "good software" and "huge marketting budget" has anything to do with that. Also note that only 10% of the non-mobile game colsole market belongs to Nintendo. You've said very, very little of Nintendo's competitors, especially seeing how XBox already has much of what Revolution will have.
XBOX is not PPC based so it would be a major rewrite of OS4 and as I've stated before is off-topic. My point is that since many more people already own a GC vs. A1, it would be fairly convenient for them to purchase OS4 for GC vs. also having to purchase an A1...
I'm curious? Who am I hurting by suggesting this?
Part of the trick of pusing an "idea" is Proof of Concept. All you've been talking about is prices and hacks. You're not taking into consideration any of the technical issues related to getting a "real" OS working on a console, including development budget or licensing.
That's why people aren't taking your idea seriously. I love the idea of a portable sub $200 computer. In fact, I'm still debating whether to buy a Mac mini. However, I know enough about OS development to know it's not techically feasable to get a multitasking OS working on console hardware, and I also know there's a lot of hidden costs you're not mentioning.
once again:
http://www.gc-linux.org/if it Linux can be hacked in, OS4 can be done legally and professionally at a profit to Amiga Inc. and Hyperion. Eyetech can also benefit from an SX-1-like addon. I already have an addon sitting underneath my GC - the GBA player. I'd have no problem replacing it with an addon that gives me IDE, usb...etc.. ports to be a 'full' computer running OS4. Such an addon can be designed for far less than a complete motherboard with ZIF socket...
Do you have a sudden urge to buy a Commodore MP3 player?
I don't have a use for a portable MP3 player but others may. People originally believe the Apple IPod wouldn't sell.
Linux generated a buzz with the techie population. OS4 on a console (and other hardware) could do the same thing.
Note that Linux was designed to be a low-cost UNIX clone for college students, and was x86 exclusive, to boot. It was the development of GNU, the porting of X11, and a huge rewrite with Kernel 2.0 that made Linux a real contender. The only way AmigaOS could hope to have the same following is if it went open source. Otherwise, it would take more money than you could imagine to get the "Linux Buzz" for the Amiga.
Linux is no longer x86 exclusive. Linux is already running on the GC and A1 didn't the original A1s come bundled with Linux... Once again:
http://www.gc-linux.org/Obviously the GC can run alternate OS's. Having a professionally supported OS with professional software titles is something OS4 would have over Linux. OS4 bundled with Ibrowse and some Hyperion games would, IMHO, be a good bundle on the GC. Include UAE of OS4 to run classic Amiga games and use the MAX DRIVE to transer the .adf files to the GC and you could be playing classic Amiga titles through OS4 on the GC.
If OS4 was released for cheap hardware (wasn't that one of the goals of the A1?), I would buy it.
I don't think "cheap" had anything to do with it. Piracy? Locked firmware? Politics? That's more like it.
Non-issues with the GC. I can't read GC discs on my PC. I could read the A1's OS4 cd. Piracy would be minimized with a GC port.
Besides, Gamecube is cheap because it is nearing the end of its life and didn't live up to expectations (assuming it hasn't already been taken out of manufacture). When Revolution shipps, it will be powerful, but won't quite fit the tab as a cheap platform, anymore, especialy with the mandatory development licenses attached.
The GC was/is profitable for Nintendo. As the next Gameboy (Evolution) is rumored to be GC compatible, software development for the platform is on-going. Also, revolution is scheduled to arrive in late Q1 of 2006. Sales of GC hardware are on-going. Games like Resident Evil 4 and features like 2 exclusive boss characters in Mortal Kombat:Deception continue to drive hardware sales of the unit as will the release of the next Zelda title this coming Christmas.
I believe that's what x86 Amigan have been saying all along. Amiga Inc. and Hyperion had plenty of time and arguments to render their decision, and they chose an expensive, buggy, outdated, expensive PPC platform.
Maybe the problem is that the people in charge don't give a damn? Your Gamecube arguments are similar to x86 arguments. Amiga and Hyperion turned them down, and show little interest in changing their minds, especially now that they are stuck with PPC whether they like it or not.
My key point is that OS4 is ALREADY a PPC OS so porting it to the GC should only require a rewrite of the HAL (licensing issues included). Going to x86 is a much bigger issue. Also, I like the fact that consoles are better for games. The heart of the Amiga is a games machine. The A1 is a PC design and has the same inefficencies as a PC (x86)...it's single shared system bus architeture. Much of the Amiga's multi-tasking capabilities came from the fact that the custom chips could access memory on there own while the cpu was doing other things. The GC is also built that way. It's truly very Amiga-like from a hardware point of view.
