Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro

[amigadave]

I could apply your reasoning to pretty much everything: Why would I use AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS/C64 for X when Windows/Linux/Some-Industrial-PC already does it so well? X could be anything from web-browsing to gaming and beyond.

Why? Because I feel like it; I enjoy it; it's fun.

Hans

Exactly!

Why do so many people posting to Amiga related forums miss this point.  We use these systems because we like how they work.  To us, they are fun to use, and we want to expand what we can do on them and with them to new applications.

Even though Xena/Xorro has been highly criticized by many people who don't own an X1000, I am still confident that someone will come up with an interesting project that uses this one-of-a-kind interface for AmigaOS4.x.

Will it be something revolutionary and amazing that has never been done on any other platform?  Probably not, but it will be different in the way it is implemented, due to the unique interface that it is connected to on the X1000.  As long as it is useful to a few people, it will be interesting to me.

As a person who wants to improve my programming skills, and someone who is interested in computer controlled devices to make life easier and better, I am very interested in trying to invent ways to make my X1000 useful around my home.  I could find commercial products to do any number of those same tasks, but where is the fun in that?

[amigadave]

I believe it was just a marketing thing. Remember it was set to be perceived as an Amiga like "custom chip". So that it appeared more mind pleasing for those who had a real Amiga and big pockets, and were looking for a next generation amiga-ish computer.

I don't disagree with what you wrote above, but like Lyle, I get annoyed by some other statements that try to tell people what the Xena/Xorro is, or was supposed to be.  Lyle summed up everything in his long 2 part post earlier in this thread, so I will just quote part of what he wrote again for emphasis.

Finally, if you've been reading along this far.. I'd like to vent about  one particularly annoying rant.. Some people keep going on about what  A-EON _SHOULD_ be doing with Xena. Xena is there as a USER_DEFINABLE  expansion. It's not their unfinished project, it's YOURS.
If you want to do something with Xena. GO FOR IT!

I think that Lyle put it into perspective best with that statement.  Xena/Xorro can be what ever the user wants to make of it.  It was included to encourage users to experiment and be creative, which Amiga users have always been famous for in the past.  Call it a marketing gimmick if you want.  Call it useless and a waste to have it on the motherboard, instead of just including the USB version with every X1000 motherboard, if you want.  Trevor acted on the advice given to him at the time of the design for the X1000 motherboard by people who have much more technical knowledge than himself.  The additional cost for adding it to the motherboard was said to be negligible, so Trevor gave them the "Green Light" to proceed.  I don't see many actual X1000 owners complaining about the Xena/Xorro interface and processor being included, and I for one, think it is interesting.  I am glad that this interesting "user-definable" chip and interface is on my X1000 motherboard.  I also plan to "tinker" with it in the near future.  The one thing that should have been done before the release of the X1000, would be to have completed the porting of the XMOS toolchain to AmigaOS4.x, so owners could have begun playing around with the Xena/Xorro combination much sooner.  From what Lyle wrote, it appears that still more work needs to be done, before a complete set of tools is available to develop for Xena/Xorro, while using AmigaOS4.x, but the tools Lyle has made available to us are enough to begin many projects with.

[amigadave]

The real question is what advantage does connecting XMOS directly to the motherboard of the AmigaOne bring?

That is a very valid question, and hindsight is always more clear than trying to predict the future when designing something.

Given the low production numbers, and therefore low number of X1000 owners/users/developers, I think that it may take much more time before we can know if there will be any advantage, or disadvantage, or no difference in having an XMOS chip on the motherboard, compared to a stand-alone XMOS board.  Since it is a User-Definable interface & processor, who knows if/when one or more of the users comes up with an idea to use Xena/Xorro in a way that is unique to having it on the motherboard, instead of a stand-alone XMOS board.

The Amiga community is small now and AmigaOS4.x users are a smaller subset of that niche community.  X1000 owners/users/developers are a fraction of AmigaOS4.x users, and our small community, so it may take a very long time before many projects that use Xena/Xorro are started, or completed.  As one of the members here pointed out, not all Amiga users are programmers or technical people with hardware design experience, so maybe we won't ever see any great innovative use of Xena/Xorro, but I would not bet against something showing up.  Amiga users are amazing people who don't give up easily and they usually do more with what ever is available to them, than what is expected or normal.

[amigadave]

If the idea is from Varisys and they should have known that you need certain software and drivers for it that are closed source they should have had a plan how to support it in future. If not why integrating it? And why integrating it in X5000 yet again?

The idea obviously came from Varisys, no "If" about it.  Yes, they should have thought more about the difficulties in porting the control software, or development tools, and maybe they mentioned it, or maybe they did not think of that problem at that time.  I don't think Varisys guys had any experience or knowledge about AmigaOS4.x or the capabilities of the Hyperion developers working on the port.  It appears that the XMOS chips had peaked the interest of at least one or more people high up at Varisys, which is why they made the suggestion to integrate one of the chips onto the Nemo motherboard, without regard on how the tools would be ported to AmigaOS4.x.

Varisys was only concerned with the hardware side, and it was A-Eon's and Hyperion's responsibility to port AmigaOS4.x to the new hardware and write all needed drivers.  Varisys only made sure the hardware would run Linux, so they could test all hardware on the motherboard and get A-Eon to "sign off" on it being finished and working.  They had no responsibility or concern on how any of the hardware would be supported in the future by A-Eon, or Hyperion.

As for your question on why it was integrated onto the X1000 motherboard, I think that answer has already been explained a few times.  It was an inexpensive way to make the X1000 motherboard different or unique, and provided a "user-definable" chip and interface to Amiga users.  Something to make it special, even though some people choose to criticize the decision and usefulness of Xena/Xorro, it does not change the reason(s) for initially adding it to the X1000 motherboard.  

Only Trevor and Matthew can answer why it is still being added to their next AmigaOne X5000 motherboards, but I would guess that they still believe that the Xena/Xorro combination will be utilized in some interesting and productive way in the future, either by some 3rd party developer, or perhaps A-Eon has an idea of their own for some use or product that will use the Xena/Xorro interface.  I perceive the availability of Xena/Xorro on the X1000 and X5000 motherboards as an opportunity for owners of such systems to be creative and develop any kind of software and hardware projects that they can imagine.  If removing it from the X5000 only changes the price by $20 or $50, or even $100, then it makes more sense to me to keep it.

It does not matter how much a few people protest, or campaign against the usefulness of Xena/Xorro, specially when those few people are not X1000 customers.  Those opinions are not going to change the decisions of Trevor, or Matthew, though I am sure that both of them are well aware of the valid arguments for and against continuing to include Xena/Xorro on their future motherboards.  The development cost on how to add Xena/Xorro to a motherboard has already been paid out on the X1000 design and development costs, so adding it again to the X5000 does not include the development cost, only the cost of components.  Perhaps Trevor has a good deal with XMOS on the price of the Xena chip, who knows?  I would guess that compared to the over all cost of the X5000 motherboard, the addition of the XMOS chip to it is very small and removing it would not change the price of selling the X5000 motherboards or complete systems very much, so any small cost savings are probably not enough incentive to Trevor and Matthew to give up on Xena/Xorro yet.

There are always going to be a few people who have different opinions and suggestions on how to do things differently, specially in this community, where there are so many different choices to continue the spirit of the Amiga.  There is no way to please everyone, all of the time.  It will be interesting to me when someone finally does utilize Xena/Xorro in an interesting and productive way.  What will all the people who say Xena/Xorro is completely useless say then?  It reminds me of the few who were so sure that the Minimig was a hoax and could never be accomplished.  But I am also open minded and realize that it may take years for anything interesting to be developed for Xena/Xorro, or that maybe it will never happen.  And if nothing ever becomes available for the Xena/Xorro combination, I won't blame Trevor and the Varisys designers for trying to make something unique available to the end users.  Some attempts at innovation work and some don't.  Maybe it will turn out to be a bad idea, but I don't believe that we have given it enough time to make that determination yet.

[amigadave]

The main complaint from most non-X1000 owners seems to be that the X1000 is too expensive for them to afford, and the addition of Xena/Xorro has added to this already too high price tag, even if the additional cost is minimal (according to A-Eon statements). Custom hardware in low quantities will always be expensive, compared to similar performance high volume mainstream products, that is just the way it will always be.

Then there is the complaint that nothing has been done so far by any of the X1000 owners, so the Xena/Xorro must be useless.  This argument does not hold water with me, as there are quite a few people using XMOS chips for hobby projects all over the world, so we know that the chip is useful in some applications.  

Lastly, many people complain that having the XMOS chip on the motherboard offers no improvement than using a stand alone XMOS development board via USB connection could provide, so why include it on the motherboard?  That statement may remain to be true for an unknown amount of time into the future, as we cannot predict what will be done with Xena/Xorro in the future, or if having it on the motherboard will be any different than using a stand alone development XMOS board via USB connection.  So, only time will tell if that argument is valid, or not.

One argument I don't agree with is the argument that it serves no purpose, as that is highly subjective.  Several X1000 owners are thinking of different ways in which to use the Xena/Xorro interface and processor, but have just not had the time to work on such projects yet, myself included.  People who don't own and have no desire to purchase an X1000 can easily say how uninteresting and useless a thing is, and for them, it is true, but for us owners of X1000 systems, that statement is not true.  Use and promote what you like to use, but why do a few of you who have no interest in the X1000, or X5000 feel so compelled to try to drag it down with your own opinions?  Do you see other users trying to do the same to your favorite platform or hardware?  I don't, or at least I don't see it very often.

I guess the main reason for this is that most people here want their own vision of a NG Amiga system, but they don't have the resources or will to make it happen, but feel entitled to criticize any other attempts for not fulfilling their standards, or dreams for the future.  If you are not interested in the direction that A-Eon has taken, look elsewhere and enjoy a different path, but why spend so much time and effort trying to discredit, defame, or tear down other peoples work, when those people are not so different than yourselves, and they try to do the best they can, even though their choices may not be the same as the ones you would make in their shoes?

Criticism is not a bad thing when it is constructive and helpful, but I see little of that type of criticism going on here in this thread.

Edit:  One last thing that I must comment on is the message previously in this thread that compares using Xena/Xorro on AmigaOS4.x with a slower tool set, when the same development work could be done better and faster on a PC using the free and excellent tools provided by XMOS.  That argument could be applied to anything we do on any of our Amiga or Amiga inspired systems.  I don't think there is one thing that can't be done better or faster on a PC, but here we all are still after all these years, using our Amiga and Amiga inspired systems.  We do it because we enjoy it!

[amigadave]

I have no axe to grind on this subject, but I must say that the prototyping board is far too expensive to encourage experimenters.
Maybe A-EON could put an XMOS chip on a ZORRO card to increase the number of potential experimenters.

Constructive criticism.  Thank you.  Not everyone will agree with your opinion that it is "far too expensive", but that does not change the fact that your criticism is constructive in nature and suggests a possible helpful alternative to increase interest in Amiga + XMOS projects, as not all Classic Amiga owners have added USB to their Amigas, so the option of using a standard XMOS USB development board is not available to them.  But remember, it is a waste of time to use XMOS chips with your Amiga, as you can do it faster and better connected to your PC.

Edit:  Just to remind some of you who don't know me, I am the guy who promotes MorphOS at 5 out of the last 6 AmiWest shows, not an AmigaOS4.x "fanboy", or someone who defends everything that Hyperion does.  I just happen to also own an X1000, but my current favorite Amiga inspired platform is still MorphOS3.6 on my 17" 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook, over-clocked 1.5GHz G4 PowerMac, and Dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac (400MHz Efika too, but it has not been turned on in a couple of years).  I choose to support all flavors of the Amiga experience, and think it is a waste of time to tear any of them down.

[amigadave]

Nobody doubts that there are use cases for the chips, otherwise they would neither be developed nor sold but I am wondering for what consumers can use them (and both X1000 and X5000 are consumer boards). If it would be sold to people using it professional then it might make more sense (if it would be full supported) but companies will certainly not buy it because it is too expensive, missing drivers and development environment for it, and no support nearby and thus problems if f.e. the system must be repaired. The last point alone would be a no-go for a company. So X series is for amigans only. Trevor integrates Xena again in the new X5000 despite the experiences with X1000 so he has either ideas people here not have or it is just a small gimmick to make the board special without any real use. But every gimmick makes it more expensive so I personal would have left it away if I realize that something is without real use but it is Trevors decision and the money of the people that buy the boards...

I think you are selling short (underestimating) the ingenuity of Amiga (and now AmigaOne, MorphOS, AROS, & FPGA clone) users.  As itix wrote, the pool of users who have a lot of the technical expertise and knowledge of how AmigaOS and any newer Amiga inspired OSes work, is shrinking and rare.  This makes new ideas and products, or add-on boards more rare as well, but we still see something new being worked on every year, so there is still hope that new ideas will make there way into our tiny community.  Even ideas that use the Xena/Xorro combination.  We have seen just here in this thread that there are a few developers who have some interest in working on projects that use the Xena/Xorro combination, but only when they have finished other projects and have the time to work on any Xena/Xorro project.  There are other owners of X1000's that may not have much programming or electrical engineering knowledge, but still want to explore the possibility of creating something that uses the Xena/Xorro combination (like me).  I am getting tired of repeating the same kinds of things over and over again to people who just refuse to listen, or admit that there are two valid sides to this argument.  Would an FPGA have been a better choice instead of an XMOS chip?  Probably, but I'll bet it would have been much more expensive and maybe even more difficult to add to the motherboard than the simpler XMOS chip.  That argument is water under the bridge and we have Xena/Xorro now.  It is there for anyone who wishes to make use of it and does not get in the way for those who choose to ignore it.  Again I say, why so much time and effort to argue against A-Eon's choice to provide this extra feature (and believe me, to most X1000 owners, having Xena/Xorro is an added value feature, that they may be able to use some time in the future)?  Why do a few members here feel compelled to spend so much time and effort telling us what has not yet been done, or what can't or shouldn't be done, with a user defined chip and interface that is there just for people who want to be creative and use it in any way their minds come up with?  It is Trevor's choice to continue including Xena/Xorro on future systems and it is the buyers of these A-Eon systems choice to buy them, or not.

I get that some people are angry that they can't afford them, or that they want A-Eon to make something different.  I feel sorry for those people, but please move on to something you really enjoy and want to promote with positive energy.  If your interest is in FPGA accelerators and clones, put your energy and time there, raising excitement about that platform.  If you prefer MorphOS on PPC Mac hardware, go promote it to new users and raise awareness of how great that platform is.  The same goes for AROS, AEROS, ARIX, or any of the other AROS distributions.  Why spend time telling a sculptor that his lump of clay, or block of stone, can't be this, or can't be that.  Xena/Xorro will be used in the future by a few people, then you can come back and use all of your negative energy to criticize what someone has spent weeks, months or years creating, and tell them how they could have done it easier and faster, and better, by using their PC.  Is that the kind of thing you want to spend your time doing?  Because that is what is looks like many of you are doing here in this thread. (this is not aimed directly only at you Olaf, though in might apply to some of your statements in this thread)

so you basically develop a program and upload it in the chip where it is  executed independently and reacts on events but no interaction with the  host system (if I am wrong then someone can explain it)

I don't believe that is correct, but people like Lyle or Trevor, or Spirantho, would have to give you a technical explanation of exactly how the XMOS chip is connected directly to the PA6T CPU and/or memory chips, or bus on the Nemo motherboard.  It is my understanding that there is direct access to and from the XMOS chip from AmigaOS4.x, but I could be wrong.  How else would Lyle have created, or ported some of the tools to program Xena from AmigaOS4.x, if there is no direct lines from the Xena chip to the rest of the system?

[amigadave]

I'm just trying to get rid of those in this discussion who are permanently bashing the implementation of XENA/XORRO and the people behind this idea.

Please calm down everyone.  If you have a problem with what any other member writes in a forum message, and you think that it violates the Posting Guidelines for this site,please do not lash out against them, just use the "Report" post button to bring the message to the attention of the moderators.  It is certainly not any members right or responsibility to "get rid of" other members who happen to have a differing opinion.  The owner(s) of this site want the forums to be a welcoming place for all users and points of view.  That being said, all members should reacquaint themselves with the Posting Guidelines and not insult or "bash" other members ideas, choices, or opinions.  The moderation staff has been very lenient while the transition from the previous owner & management to the new owner(s) and management has been taking place, but that does not mean that we don't care, or we are not watching and reading what is going on in the forums.

Ideally, all forum site managers and moderators would prefer that all members self moderate their forum messages, so that management and moderators don't have to remind any members how they have agreed to behave when they agreed to the Posting Guidelines at the time they signed up to be a member here.  So let's all behave ourselves and enjoy these forums as a place to share our love of all things related to the Amiga, which brought all of us together in the first place.

[amigadave]

@Dandy

This is "classic" Amiga forum

No, this is an Amiga forum that is open and welcome to all flavors of the Amiga experience.  It is one of, if not THE oldest Amiga forum site, so it began before many of the newer Amiga flavors existed, but that does not mean that it is ONLY for Classic Amiga users.

so most users here see it from "classic" view of point.

The majority of users in the Amiga community are "Classic" Amiga owners/users, so it is no surprise that a "Classic" Amiga point of view is expressed more often here.  The new owner(s) want to make this site a welcoming place for all users of any Amiga or Amiga inspired system.

Please keep this in mind when posting to these forums.

[amigadave]

If I don't want to have any extra hardware connected to my X1000, how can I make use of Xena?

Assume I create a simple Xena/XC program (using XTools on Mac/PC) that, for instance, flips all bits of some data. Would it be possible for me to, from AmigaOS, send the bits "000111" and then get "111000" back?

I've looked at the examples from wiki.amigaos.net, but they both require some extra hardware. What I basically want is some simple data processor that sits and wait for data to process, and then returns it. I understand that the power of Xena is when using it with custom hardware, but the step to wiring your own hardware is a bit steep for me -- and I really don't know what kind of hardware I want/need.

Oh, and while I'm at it: how do I transfer programs to Xena, and how do I start it? I kind of get that it might be a stupid question , but I really don't know where to start; it should be possible from AmigaOS, right?

I don't see why what you want can't be created to run on the Xena chip, without needing extra external hardware wired to it, but then I am not knowledgeable enough about Xena/Xorro yet.  I think most or all of your answers have already been written in what Lyle has posted in this thread, so you might want to go back and read his posts carefully.

Until some AmigaOS4.x developer thinks up a project that needs the kinds of features that the Xena chip and/or Xorro interface provide, the ideas will more likely come from the XMOS forums where PC or Mac developers are sharing their projects and ideas on how to best use any of the XMOS chips.

The learning curve and lower availability of tools that can be used from within AmigaOS4.x currently, cause a delay in Xena/Xorro projects coming from traditional Amiga developers, or electrical engineers.  Specially when only a few Amiga developers and/or electrical engineers have purchased an X1000.  So, it may take more time before someone comes up with an interesting idea and project that uses the Xena/Xorro combination.  I know I will be watching the XMOS forums to see what people on other platforms are doing with their XMOS chips, as a way of educating myself about what can be done with those chips.

I have confidence that Amiga developers & programmers & electrical engineers are more creative and capable than average Windows, or Mac users, so I won't be surprised when some great project, or product becomes available that depends on the Xena/Xorro combination.  But I won't just be waiting for someone else to create something, I will be educating myself and thinking up my own ideas on how to use my X1000 w/Xena/Xorro.

[amigadave]

Reading this thread makes me want to go back to school, so I can learn more about computer electronics, as well as computer programming.  Even though I am too old to put such schooling to good use as a job, I could still use it for my own personal projects, and perhaps think up one or two that other X1000 owners (and future X5000 owners as well) might find interesting or useful.

Maybe I can test the old saying about teaching old dogs new tricks (meaning myself).

@LyleHaze,

I like the idea of using the Xena/Xorro combination for audio projects, as well as your Data Logger, and possibly a floppy controller that would make standard PC floppy drives compatible with both original Amiga floppy formats, and dozens of other floppy formats from other platforms, so almost any floppy disk could be read from our X1000's.  Being able to use our old 9pin Amiga joysticks with instant response, would also be desirable, as well as adapters for some of the most popular console controllers, that younger users prefer to use instead of a joystick.  For me, using the old Atari/Amiga style joysticks is the most fun way to play computer games, but I suppose they could be improved to include more control buttons, to make them more like a console controller.  Seems to me that a joystick port using the Xena/Xorro combination should probably be a very easy project to complete, but not a very efficient use of the capabilities of Xena/Xorro, so would be best if it were only one part of a combined project that used the rest of the available threads of the XMOS chip for other tasks.