Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up

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I have been pleasantly surprised by the comments on national TV tonight, concerning the spate of shootings in south London that have left three teenagers dead in the space of only ten days.
David Lammy, MP for Tottenham gave the best summary of the problems and offered the best solutions in my opinion.
In years gone by, the response from the community would have been criticism of the government for not stopping guns falling into the hands of criminals.
However, it is now a widely accepted fact that these London shootings and many of the shootings elsewhere in England are more prominently seen in the black community. Operation Trident has been running for many years and deals with black on black violence here in London. I hate to use the term gun culture, because I think it places too much emphasis on what is essentially a tool, but the general consensus is that better parenting and a reduced gang mentality is needed to stop these teenagers from taking part in revenge and 'respect' killings in the black communities here in London.
Other community leaders have called for more responsibility to be taken by parents, particularly fathers, who are not taking enough interest in their boys' upbringing, and not being appropriate role models for their kids.
Lammy said that the final analysis of a person who takes a gun and shoots somebody dead, is that it is an evil wicked thing to do.
He proposes that the communities themselves must get involved in sorting this problem out.
That's the right path to take, in my opinion.

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I think Shillard was being sarcastic, but we are all on the same page: a ban doesn't stop criminals getting what they want.
To clarify on the legal angle here in the UK:

1) The only handguns (firearms) that can be licensed here in England, are black-powder pistols (muzzle-loading pistols). These have not been seen in many gunshot incidents of a criminal nature here in the UK (in fact I have not heard of even one such incident here, but there is/was a criminal element in Australia that tends/tended to favour black-powder pistols).

2) Shotguns can be owned if the individual applies for the appropriate certificate from the police. An individual with a valid shotgun certificate can have as many shotguns as he likes. These can operate by any mechanism (break, pump, semi-auto) as long as the shotgun cannot have more than 3 cartridges 'on board' at a time.

3) No semi-automatic rifles can be had. The only exception to this is rimfire rifles (usually this means .22s). Any centerfire rifle must be manually loading (such as bolt action, lever action, pump action etc). There aren't any calibre limits for manually-operated rifles, but range limitations exist.

4) A muzzle-loading pistol can be had on a firearms certificate, same as the rifles. If the shooter wants to practice the original black powder disciplines, he needs two additional licenses relating to explosives. He needs a license to store explosives and another license to transport those explosives from their place of storage to the range. These days people use Pyrodex instead of black powder because Pyrodex is not an explosive.

5) Crossbows are not licensed. Air rifles and pistols under a certain foot-pound energy value are not licensed, but age limits apply to the purchasing of these items. (I'm not sure what that age is, but it is in the teens).

If you want a firearms certificate, the onus is on you to prove to the police why you need that, whereas if you want a shotgun certificate, the onus is on the police to prove why you shouldn't have it.

And those are the laws in a nutshell. There are exceptions, but the requirements to meet those exceptions are usually beyond the ordinary citizen's needs.

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Hey man, T-Bone is back  :banana:  :banana:
Good to see you again  :pint:

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...and what happened with those kitties?

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Depends what you mean by 'firearms fan.'

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"...A firearm is a tool that is solely the end result of people unable to get along..."
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Well, many would disagree with you there. Granted, firearms are the preferred weapon in combat between troops today, but men have fought each other with all sorts of weapons throughout the ages. I have firearms and I also have bows. Both classes of weapons have been used in conflicts, and both classes of weapons are currently in use for target shooting and in some instances hunting. I have an assortment of cutlery and tools that can be used as weapons too.
But I get along just fine with our fair citizens, whether I am in South Africa or in the UK.
Just having the tool is not enough to render a man unlawfully dangerous.

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I see.
So, do you want to come shooting with me, Mel?  :lol:

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"...Can you honestly look at a gun with full knowledge of its intended purpose, knowing how many lives it has ultimately cost and regard it as something positive and worthwhile? Can you admire it as a thing of beauty when you know how ugly its purpose?..."
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Well firstly, no firearm I have owned has ever been a thing of beauty. Not because I don't think a firearm is capable of being a thing of beauty, but because they simply weren't. In fact they were/are dog ugly.  :lol:

However, bearing in mind that a firearm is a crafted, engineered item, it is as much worthy of being described as a thing of beauty as any other inanimate object, whether it is an Amiga computer, a fighter jet or a fountain pen. Some firearms are beautifully crafted, and are collector's items (such as Holland & Holland shotguns).
Others are so precisely engineered and have such good ergonomics that they have an aesthetic kind of beauty. Kind of like when form meets function (such as the precision Anschutz rifles).

I can appreciate why some people admire the engraving on a gun and the finely crafted stock, possibly made of walnut. Some of these people don't even fire those, the guns become 'safe queens.'

Well I have to admit that I don't care much about the looks of a firearm. I just want it to be accurate and have good ergonomics and safety features. That's because I want to be able to comfortably aim the thing and hit my target.

Now you say, what is the big deal about target shooting? Surely I can find something to replace that? Well video games are nice, I play darts, I've tried paint ball and laser tag. But none of those require the discipline and skill it takes to hit a target at distance with a precisely-aimed projectile. There isn't a substitute for the real thing. It is like substituting YOU for a sock...see what I mean?

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"...Can you honestly look at a gun with full knowledge of its intended purpose, knowing how many lives it has ultimately cost and regard it as something positive and worthwhile? Can you admire it as a thing of beauty when you know how ugly its purpose?..."
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Well, I have firearms, Mel. They haven't cost any lives, don't have an ugly purpose and are definitely worthwhile having.
I think it must be because I bought my guns from a dealer who only sells guns that were brought up by good parents and are not made from cursed metals. I have never had complaints from the authorities about my guns being evil. I guess mine are just well-behaved   ;-)

Now these dudes in south London, shooting each other...I feel sorry for them. Clearly they are under the influence of evil guns. They must have got their guns from a dodgy dealer. I bet you if I give them my guns and they give me theirs, then they will become good citizens with no record, and I will become a one man crime-wave  :-D

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"...Yes they have..."
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Okay, who did I kill with my firearms?

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"...Why am I not surprised to hear you own more than one?..."
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I've never understood why some women need 30 pairs of shoes and several different nail-files so I guess the score is 1-1 there.
By the way I also have more than one firearm. Makes me twice as evil.

 :devildance:  :devildance:

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"...I must say its a relief to read youd rather copulate with your laundry as you havent a hope in hell of making that substitution..."
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Aww Mel, and I thought we would be so good together.

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"...I didnt once say you personally have killed anybody with your firearms only that your firearms have aided the killing of people financially. I am sorry if this concept is to abstract for you but I will try to explain..."
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Oh, so it is financially that I have assisted the slaughter of the innocents, is it?
Really?
I thought my taxes were being used for that, not the £9 profit the gun manufacturer made from my two sales. ;-)  
Well, seeing as I have contributed much more than £9 to charitable causes, I guess I am in the black morally.
It's just as well, because you had me thinking I was a lost cause  :lol:  

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"...Here is a thought. Assume your gun was stolen in a robbery and then used to kill someone in a subsequent crime. Can you honestly say you played no part in making that weapon available to the killer (even in this opportunistic example)?"
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If the weapon was stolen because I failed to take due precautions to store it in a secure manner then I would definitely be at fault and would have to accept responsibility for the negligent loss of a firearm.

"...Where do the illegally owned firearms in the hands of criminals come from originally?..."
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Multiple sources:

1) Locally stolen legally-held firearms (not applicable to the subject at hand in the London scenario, because the weapons cannot be legally held as they are banned.)

2) Illegally modified Brocock air pistols. A Brocock air-pistol is made purely for sport and target shooting, so that is excluded from your manufacturer's contribution to evil. These are no longer available here in the UK, anyway.

3) Home made. You can make a shotgun with two pieces of plumber's pipe, a 50p coin and a bit of epoxy adhesive. Who said knowledge isn't dangerous? Maybe we should lock up all the budding engineers and burn all the books.

4) Guns that were legally manufactured overseas and were smuggled into the UK. This is what I call a universal donor. These guns are always going to be available as long as countries have a need and means to defend themselves. Almost every country in the world manufactures small arms.

If we could press a magic button and make them all turn into dust, that would be great. But then we as a nation would become subservient to the first group of chavs who armed themselves with a bunch of £4 axes bought legally from B&Q.

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"...Would you use your handgun to shoot a chav with an axe that broke into your house?..."
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You mean if I actually had a handgun and was allowed to keep it at home here in the UK?

Well let's see now, a chav with an axe broke into my home. What would I do?

I would tell him: "I say, sir, that is a simply marvellous axe. You wield it with such skill and with such vigour that I instantly warm to your derring-do and I feel a surge of bravado and machismo overtaking me, to the point that I feel compelled to challenge you fairly and squarely just as in the chivalrous duels of old.
However, I must say at this point that it is hardly a fair match: notwithstanding the fact that you have a substantial melee weapon and could probably fell me with one swift blow to the upper cervical region, I have here in my hand a firearm that can readily and more efficiently dispatch you by virtue of the fact that it can expel lead projectiles at more than 1000 feet per second. I therefore propose that you come into my kitchen and avail yourself of a cup of tea and a freshly-made scone while I pawn this firearm with all haste and purchase for myself an axe of equal character to yours, so that we may more equally discuss the future ownership of my possessions and the quality of my physical constitution."