News of Free 060 Like Apollo Core License

[Chucky]

Oh sorry i must have misunderstood chucky.
From his post about a few datatypes and smal programs i thought he was talking about PowerUP or WarpOS on classic AmigaOS.. (Not MorphOS or AmigaOS 4.x)

And with that point of view i cant understand how it compares. My PPC did stay mostly unused on OS3.9 but my Vampire is used for everything and all my 68k programs.

But from your point of view yes they are the same only the Vampire is quicker on 68k code...even faster than native PPC code in many cases

that is my point.. the bells and whistles of the 080 will be unused as the PPC was unused on most CSPPCs/BPPCs. (I just mine for datatypes and archivers..  not that much)  so the 080 addons as they hype so much will never really be noticed..  if even used.   as you need coders actually DOING the software...

[Chucky]

@Chucky

Good, grief, would you please shut your pie hole!  You act as if someone is forcing you to buy a Vampire.  If you don't like it and it doesn't suite your needs then don't buy it.  Do us all a favor and buy an 060 card and drive off into the

buy.. I got several.  I also got stock of 060 cpus..

guess what I am doing instead?  Developing a new.. opensourced 060 solution..
(takingh next steps from the A3660 I released 2 weeks ago already)


this is that I need to tell that the080 is NOT the future.. we are a lot that doesn't like it.  and actually interesting enough.  those I know who like the 080 is the noncoders. they who often does NOT like 080 are the coders..

so WHO will do the coding if they can't get the programmers on their side?
especially from a team that does NOT listen instead kick and ban?

[Chucky]

So for this thread..  so far I am one of those who would BE a target of the offer..  as I could skip doing the A3660 Rev 2 and do he A3680 instead..

(or call it something different.. but you get the point)

but.. I simply do not dare putting all work into the hands of one person, AND the fact that .. retrocomputing for me is very very static.. and I try to tell what could make me change my mind..

luckly for me.  I have still a quite good source of real 060 cpus  so I will not have the issue.  but yes. they are getting harder to source.. (even if I still buys them in packs of 10)

[Chucky]

Hmm still dont get your point. In that case wouldnt a 060 be the same? not much software is tuned for 060 either. Mostly a couple of demos and some datatypes..

You still argue in a way that i think you think the Apollo core is only AMMX and 64bit instructions.. and when not using that it it pointless???

If it runs 040 code faster then a real 68040 or 060 code faster then a 68060 is that so bad?
It has every instruction from the 68k motorola family included in the core. (Except TAS2 and MMU)

"couple demos"  there is a LOT of 060 demos..  and for me  that is what I use my Amiga for.... (except coding on DiagROM )

the 080 still lacks FPU!..  when I bought my Vampire I read a promise about AGA and FPU..    what I understand.  we will get AGA and a PARTIAL FPU. as there is no room for the fpu..  (but room for crap.. ie stuff that never will be used.  instead of that real fpu....)

and no mmu..  and programmers needs mmu..

so..  a crippled cpu. that behaves more lika a buggy emulator (NO!  I know FPGA is not emulation..  it BEHAVES like it!)


what do YOU guys use your beloved Amigas for?   be HONEST now..
I would guess:  games, demos and mostly just..  fiddeling with it..
production use?  web?  nah!

[Chucky]

most is aimed for 50MHz..

but I happen to know that the revision compomachine is clocked to 66MHz

my A4000 is clocked at 72..  my demoparty macine is 50MHz (also compomachine on the Edison demoparty here in Sweden)

I have done 100MHz overclocks to some CS MK2 to people as they want.

anyway. 50 is usually the maingoal for most demos anyway.
(elude always runs slower as they refuse to do the needed cheats..  so they "need" the 100MHz one

ofcorse  fastermachine runs the stuff .. faster

[Chucky]

As you are an FPGA expert and know the size of the different components in the core can you please enlighten us about what the "crap" is and how big that is?

SAGA?
AMMX?
64-Bit Support?
Instruction Bonding?
Instruction Fusing?
Big Instruction-Cache?
Big Data-Cache?

no I am no FPGA expert..  but 64bit support etc must take space.. and if they can fit parts of the FPU.  skipping all that bells and whistles  must take space that the rest should fit..

Im guessing DiagRom would have been impossible for you to do without an MMU?

Diagrom is a VERY VERY VERY special thing. as it runs without any OS whatsoever..  as..  it is REMOVED.. there IS no kickstart..  there IS no possability to run that stuff..  without the debugger in UAE it would be more or less impossible to do surtain things..  

Playing some games, listening to mods, looking at demos, Painting in DPaint, Configuring my WB to look like i want it, showing it of to friends and family and my daughter.

yes.. so.. simply: will not use AMMX etc etc you either...
as dpaint etc does not use it..  and as sources most likly are gone: will never use it.

so putting alot of effort AND FPGA space for.. "nothing"

[Chucky]

Electronic Arts released the source code for version 1 so they probably do have the other source code archived.

DPaint is not developed anymore AFAIK  but the DPaint inspired GrafX2 was very recently ported to Amiga 68k and that uses SDL. I believe SDL has or is being optimised for the 68080.

Or they just randomly found that source and.  heck we release this..

btw what C compiler supports the apollo-stuff?

[Chucky]

And that might very well have been the official wiki faq. I pointed out several times that it was incorrect, and it was changed several times too, but always leaving the impression that *some* FPU was right around the corner, even at times when Gunnar expressed on IRC that he was fed up and rather saw no FPU core on V2 at all.

yes    an as it changed..  well.  I lost trust.  but OK  gunnar now say: you buy it as it IS..  so true..
as it IS now is: no fpu, no MMU (and NO AGA!)  (YES I was at A32  I saw it working. but it is not a release.. so "as it is" for us.....

[Chucky]

Anyway I lovethis:  

- "Vampire is most compatble"
-- "Ehh this does not work"
- "you are doing it wrong!!!" (when it shuld be: "oh damn. we have an issue here"
- "It is most compatible"


so even if you present incompabilities...  there is deniers...

and my point is:  with every change:  you introduce NEW ways of being incompatible..

[Chucky]

maybe if they remove the cpu stuff that is "crap"  you know.. AMMX, 64bit,. hyperthreadin bnlahblahneverbeingusedanway..

Shortly:  first you make the stuff you want it to be compatible with. and THEN you add the "goodies"

[Chucky]

@psxphill

V2 has limited space for FPU. It might be able to fit a full HardFPU, or it might not. Which is why Soft and HardFPU combo is intresting to provide owners of this version of Vampire this functionality.

isn't it very VERY ironic that you need to add software to get functionality. from the team that say that the 68040/68060 is crap as you need 68040/68060 library to add functionality....

You already know they have a "roadmap", and only change that if someone (like Jari) joins in with their own efforts to contribute directly to the development. If you want them to divert from the "crap" maybe you should divert their attention by contributing something worthwhile, dragging their attention from their original roadmap?

Contribute.. well  people asked for FPU.. I read it in forums.  result was threatening of ban etc as NOONE NEEDED THAT!.
so with that attitude.. you know that they are not interested of input.

same here.. I have issues with lack of mmu etc.  gets reported as OFF TOPIC... meaning:  NOT INTERESTED!


so. I contribute with a cheapass (bad) 060 cpucard for bigbox..  (currentlty working on Rev2.. will not be as cheapasscrap)
and I AM interested of input.. AND help..  doing amigastuff is not a one-man show..  maybe one man does it. but there is always a lot of input to take.

[Chucky]

Does it matter how a functionality is added, as long as it works? If it causes problems, like Britelite is concerned about, then fine. Then its a valid point to raise. But given how the performance has increased in relativly short time, the refusal to accept the functionality is soon approaching pendatic at this point.

well  they use the argument that the 080 is so much better as 040/060 lib is not needed..  while to add stuff peopoe ask for, they are doing the same (except here it is not a library.. but still software)

Have you considered doing like Jari? Just start coding, and then ask for help?
Posting negatively about the lack of features (some which has been adressed in 2.7) for pages on forums does not count as contributions. And again, it would defintly piss me off to after months of it.

the lack of MMU cannot be done in software.. that is the big issue here.

Good luck with your efforts, and I actually mean that

thanx.

[Chucky]

Putting in new stuff that would REQUIRE software to be rewritten/recompiled but not stuff that oldf software already support?

and also. ironic enough. not putting in stuff that HELPS developing new software.  it is like.. like.  releasing a new cpuarchitecture for the amiga and not release programmingsoftware with it.. (PPC anyone??

but I guess gunnar had this wet dream of MMX on the Amiga etc. so he completley forgot..  the rest of the worls..  yes.  his design..
but then.  WHY THE HYPE?  especially for stuff that will be "crap" even if they might be good?

well. yes. this IS repeating..

[Chucky]

you NEED to recompile to use AMMX etc..  so  if noone needs to recompile that noone needs to implement AMMX!

and no.. I cannot use the vampire as a 68060 accelerator..
it lacks the FPU
it lacks the MMU!

it is a 68EC060. I THOW cpus like that in the bin..   I have some  that I use when I do 040-060 adapters. so I did not do a %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!up sending 5V to the cpu frying it.. (and as it is EC. it is by design broken anyway so)

[Chucky]

PARTS of the FPU!  is not the cpu.
aybe if EXACT the same parts as 68060 have..

and.. the vampirepeople have told that you get the vampire for what there is.  there IS no fpu now.. as the version you say.. is closed for team only and we never know if it of some odd reason gets scrapped..

[Chucky]

thing is that he is aprox 20 years too late..

so comparing to AMD and 64bit is poor..  as it was (is) in a time when it is developed... the amiga, 68k series etc died in the 90s..   we who are stupid enoufh to use those machines use it for nostalgic reasons. with 20+ year old software (with most lost sources) that will never be able to use all development anyway.