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Author Topic: User wants (from "Call for Amiga Developers from A-EON Technology")  (Read 18753 times)

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Offline Dandy

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Re: Call for Amiga Developers from A-EON Technology
« on: October 28, 2015, 07:55:38 PM »
Quote from: Kremlar;798262

...
I think most classic users want to see the Amiga grow into what COULD have been, like the NATAMI promised.  Many will say that Commodore was going the direction of PowerPC/OS4 anyway, but I don't think that's what classic users want.  They want to see things improved along the lines of the original Amiga chipset, maybe what AAA would have been and beyond.  
...


Well, as far as I'm concerned I have to contrtadict. I started with an A500 back in 1989, expanded it heavily and then got an A1200 in 1995.
I towered the A1200 and added an 030 accelerator.

Already during my A500 days there was talk about going PPC, which promised a significant performance increase. Since those days I dreamt of an PowerPC Amiga.

As I was studying mechanical engineering I also wanted to dive into CAD/CAM/CAE.

I realised that neither the A500, nor the A1200 had sufficiant power under the hood to allow to work fluently with apps like DynaCadd, MaxonCinema, Reflections and the like.

Meanwhile it was 1997 and the PowerPC accelerators had been announced. I eagerly awaited them.

I bought an A4000 mobo, an Miconik BigTower and the one of the first CyberstormPPC accelerators with 128 mB RAM at the "World of Amiga 97" in Cologne, along with an 8 mB Cybervision (which was delivered roughly one year later), SCSI scanner, ink jet printer and the like.

Once I had the Cybervision installed and connected to a decent 19" Belinea monitor, I asked myself how I could bear the flickering Amiga graphic system all the years. I never wanted to use an Amiga without a graphics card again just with its original chipset (OCS/ECS/AGA)...

Unfortunately it turned out rather quickly that 8 mB graphics RAM were not sufficient for me and so were the 128 mB of RAM on the CyberstormPPC.

So I expanded my A4kPPC with the Mediator PCI busboard and populated it with a Voodoo4 graca, a Terratec 512 digital soundcard (with optical output) and a 10/100 mBit NIC. Later I added an Deneb USB 2.0 highspeed card. with OS 3.9/WarpOS 16.1 I can use the 100 mBit mode of the NIC and USB 2.0 (OS 4 only allows 10 mBit and USB 1.1).

THAT was what I as a classic Amiga user wanted and THAT was the way I improved my classic Amiga 4000.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I never missed "the original Amiga chipset, maybe what AAA would have been and beyond". A PCI busboard with off-the-shelf graphics card, soundcard and a network interface card had far more to offer for the money...
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 08:01:48 PM by Dandy »
All the best,

Dandy

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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

Offline Dandy

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Re: Call for Amiga Developers from A-EON Technology
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2015, 02:29:53 PM »
Quote from: Kremlar;798313


...
Your needs seemed very application driven, like most of the people using Toasters in their Amigas.  Once the Amiga was no longer meeting their needs, and better tools became available, they moved on.  

So, if 3D/CAD was the main application for you, why stick with the Amiga once it no longer met your needs?  Why today?  



Ummm - what do you want to tell me with that? Do you want me also to move on?

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


Clearly there are better tools for the job.  Do you just prefer the OS?



Of course there are better tools for the job today. And although I like the AmigaOS this is not the reason.

Back in the early ninetees I was fascinated that I could do true 3d CAD on my Amiga 500. I also had an Amiga tool to convert the 3d data of DynaCadd into an executable CNC code that could run on the CAM system at the CAD school I was visiting at the time. It was slow, but it worked.

And all this at a fraction of the costs that I would have had to pay for a comparable x86 based system. Back then e.g. DynaCadd did cost 1,500 DM, while I would have had to pay 15,000 DM for AutoCAD.

Same for the hardware:
I bought my A500 with CBM 1082 monitor and CBM MPS 1500C color matrix printer for 1,200 DM, while a brandnew, naked 386 system (just Hercules monochrome graphics card, no sound) was around 6,000 DM at that time.

Later my decision to stay with the Amiga was simply bexause I had meanwhile collected so much software that it would have costed a fortune to replace all this Amiga productivity software with x86 software.

Furthermore I did not want buy a new PC each time a new Win version came up. Do you remember? Each new Win version required new hardware...

Over the years I had no other choice than getting PCs for the serious work, but always kept my Amigas - hoping, the Amiga situation  would improve again one day.

So the Amiga still is my hobby.

Back in the mid ninetees/early 2000s I engaged with a society for the preservation of the historic Wiehltalbahn (Wiehl valley railway).  

When we had revived the line, I got the task to plan the IT infrastructure and would have loved to use Amigas for the task, but unfortunately back then no Amiga hardware with sufficient power was available.

Had the A1X1k already existed I would have tried to use. The XENA thing seemed to be very promising for this task, but so we ended up with PCs...

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


I had many friends that liked the games on the Amiga.  Once games got better on the PC than the Amiga, they moved on.  When a better tool is available for the job, why stick with an old one?



Why not?
I paid so much money for all my Amiga stuff - why should I just give/throw it away? It can still serve me as my hobby...

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


For me, and I think many others, the Amiga itself was the application.  I liked "playing" with the system, tuning my workbench, etc.  



Here we seem to differ. For me it was an unexpensive tool and had to work the way I wanted. A stunning device back then (and in some aspects even today), but nevertheless just a tool. Nothing to found a "religion" on.

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


I liked the hardware and the OS.  I have a 4000T today with a RTG graphics card,



And despite that you nevertheless prefer the OCS over RTG? Seriously?

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


and while Workbench seems nice it just seems less "Amiga" to me.  



Well, to me it rather seems that the Amiga can only unleash its full potential with all the expansion stuff like RTG, PCI, USB and a decent accelerator...
An Amiga 4000 as it was delivered by C= (just with AGA) was simply not really usable for daily serious work.

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


I too had big box Amigas long ago.  I did not expand much, but I pre-ordered both the 3000 and 4000 when they were announced.  I was also at World of Amiga both years they were released.



As you "did not expand much" I guess you were happy with what these machines offered in their original state, namely their graphics?

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


For me the custom hardware was the heart of the Amiga, along with the OS.



What do you mean with "custom"?
"Custom hardware" for me were e.g. my sound digitiser and my prommer. I built both myself - there just were the schematics, the board layouts and and the part lists from an Amiga magazine. All self-made - optical transfer of the board layout to a blank PCB, etching, drilling, populating and soldering the boards. That's "custom made" from my POV.

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


While I obviously wished the chipset would get upgraded and move forward to one up the competition, putting PC components in an Amiga wasn't attractive to me.  



Well, for me it actually was attractive. Both - performance- and price-wise.
Comparable Amiga parts (e.g. Zorro graphics boards) were much too expensive for what they had to offer. I always wanted to get the max out of my machines - and I only could achieve this by heavily expanding the machines. And obviously I didn't want to spend a fortune for components with Amiga label, while better and cheaper solutions from the PC world were available and could be used in an Amiga with an PCI busboard.

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


I wanted C= to produce a new and better chipset so I could shove it in the faces of my PC-loving friends!



And - did they do so?
No.
Instead they preferred to go belly up by pumping all their money into their overpriced and underpowered x86 line of computers instead of improving the Amiga properly.
B.T.W. - what did you use to "shove it in the faces of your PC-loving friends", once you realised C= didn't develop the things you wanted, but went bust instead?

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


I moved on when the product stopped moving forward, when I needed a PC and could not afford both.  But I always missed my Amiga, not for any particular application - I just missed using it.



I also sort of "moved on". But I instead of seling my Amiga stuff I bought my PCs second hand and so could have both. My A4kPPC is still networked with my XP-PC via RDesktop.
Nice setup - you can easily switch between AmigaOS and Windows. If the old IBrowse doesn't display correctly - just switch over to Win and browse the web with IE, Mozilla or Chrome or the like.

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


But it has no heart!!  :)



Pardon?
Hardware does not have to have an heart, it just has to do for me what I want and how I want it. No heart required so far...

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


Today, with NG AmigaOS 4.x systems I agree and see no point in using custom PowerPC boards.  If all you care about is the OS then port it to mainstream hardware.  



All I care about is that the hardware does for me what I want and how I want it.

Quote from: Kremlar;798313


With all the money being spent on developing custom and inferior PowerPC motherboards surely porting to x86 makes more financial sense.  I don't see the logic in continuing down the path AmigaOS 4.x is currently on.



You might be right with "inferior PowerPC motherboards" as long as you compare them with x86 PC motherboards.
 
But once you compare it with classic Amiga hardware, your "inferior PowerPC motherboards" are more a "giant leap" forward, me thinks...

Even if you ported AmigaOS to x86, you still would have to make it 64 Bit and SMP, as the harware trend in x86 world goes this way.
So - if you want to make full use of modern x86 hardware with an hypothetical x86-AmigaOS, you would also have to enhance this OS with 64 Bit and SMP.
If PowerPC architecture really will end one day, we can still make the move to x86. But why not advancing the OS on the PPC platform in the meantime?

I mean - the decision for PPC has been made long ago and neither you, nort me, will ever change that. We should be lucky that Trevor invested money in new Amiga capable  hardware and tries his best also to support software development!
All the best,

Dandy

Website maintained by me

If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

Offline Dandy

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Re: Call for Amiga Developers from A-EON Technology
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2015, 02:49:16 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;798381


One correction you do not buy new hardware to run a new version of Windows but you buy new hardware and get a new version of Windows. I have never bought a new PC because a new version of Windows would require it.



When I wrote that I was thinking of the time when people were running "Windows for 286" on their 80286 machines. And then had to buy 386 harware when they wanted to upgrade to Win 3.1. You could install the new Windows version, but in order to use all its advantages you had to add more RAM than it was possible on the old machines.

And I remember that there was something with "real mode" and "protected mode" - one of these modes was supported in the newer Win version, but to take advantage of it you needed new hw as well.
IIRC, this went on until the Pentium/WinXP era...
All the best,

Dandy

Website maintained by me

If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

Offline Dandy

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Re: Call for Amiga Developers from A-EON Technology
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2015, 04:46:11 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;798387

...
"Could we have everything louder than everything else?"
Ian Gillan


[off topic]
Oh yes - good old Ian.
Too sad that Jon passed away few years ago!
So I will never ever have the chance again to see my favourite band live again in its best lineup (Ritchie Blackmore, Ian Gillan, Jon Lord, Ian Paice and Roger Glover).
But noone can take my memories of their concerts away!

And best of all:
When Ritchie had his first Rainbow gig in Cologne in 1976, he smashed his guitar in the old Deep Purple fashion and threw the parts into the audience. That's where I got the neck of his guitar...
:)
[/off topic]

EDIT:
Maybe you want to add another quotation:
" 'Tradition' is not to preserve the ashes but to pass on the flame!"
(Thomas Morus, 07. 02. 1478 - 06. 07. 1535, London)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 04:58:20 PM by Dandy »
All the best,

Dandy

Website maintained by me

If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

Offline Dandy

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Re: Call for Amiga Developers from A-EON Technology
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2015, 04:19:16 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;798454

That is Great!
I will use it.


Fine!
On the occasion of my discussion with Kremlar about expanding or not expanding Amigas I was reminded of this pearl of wisdom and thought it might fit in your collection...

Quote from: Iggy;798454

...
And you have the neck of Blackmore's guitar...very cool.


Thank you!


Neck of Ritchie Blackmore's guitar, Rainbow concert Cologne, Sporthalle, 1976



Proof of genuineness...

Quote from: Iggy;798454

Addendum - The original RX-7 (with its RX-3 underpinnings) was an interesting low priced performance car with a very different engine.
But the RX-8 is SO much better (even if the costs got outrageous).

BTW - Sorry for the off topic posts.


Not exactly a "low priced performance car", but my favourite car since LeMans 1966 (I was 9 back then):


Just returned from a test drive: Ford GT Modelyear 2005 and I



Ford GT Modelyear 2016 and I on the occasion of its presentation at Ford Development Centre in Cologne Merkenich a few weeks ago

DISCLAIMER:
Sorry - but I don't know why the GT photos are so big when linked here - on my PC all photos have the same size - namely that of the guitar photos...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 04:22:19 PM by Dandy »
All the best,

Dandy

Website maintained by me

If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)