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Author Topic: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?  (Read 70766 times)

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Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« on: April 24, 2008, 05:01:07 PM »
Today computers don't allow emulators to display animated PAL/NTSC screen modes, unless you manage to use the emulator on a 50 Hz screen mode (for PAL modes) and synchronize the emulator screen's refresh rate with the emulated screen's refresh rate.  As I have never found any way to make emulators do this, in my experience emulators are unusable, so that I have to go on with using real Amiga computers although emulators could be a much more convenient option for me.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 06:22:44 PM »
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For playing games I love using my real Amiga, but I also love using WinUAEX on my xbox.

It outputs at 50Hz, via RGB scart and looks awesome. Good stuff.


I had forgotten that animation in XBox emulators may well be normal without any hardware tinkering.  I will have to give it a try.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 09:20:44 PM »
@Krusher

What are your operating system and screen mode ?  Do you use any special screen mode created by any special software tool ?

To my knowledge, in order to emulate PAL animation you have to get your OS and monitor to display a 50 Hz mode, or you have to select some option in WinUAE that will accelerate the display to 60 frames per second instead of 50.  However, in order to display animation properly, the emulator also needs to be synchronized with the emulator screen mode's refresh rate, but this may only be possible with some special screen modes and maybe certain graphic cards.  Some people say that in any case it is impossible to display both normal animation and normal animation speed, because 50 and 60 Hz VGA refresh rates are not exactly the same as PAL and NTSC refresh rates.  However, if the emulator is able to synchronize itself with the emulator's refresh rate, then you may have normal animation and only a small speed difference.

As far as I'm concerned, I have never seen nor obtained any decent animation in emulators.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 09:37:59 PM »
Thanks for the details.

What you say is strange : if emulation speed is normal, then in 60 Hz animation must be awfully jerky - as jerky as on a Samsung LCD TV ;-) - and you couldn't miss it.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 09:50:53 PM »
If your animation is really normal then I don't understand why.

Unless WinUAE contains some new complex algorithm that creates virtual frames in order to emulate 50 Hz animation on higher refresh rates.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2008, 10:15:55 PM »
I don't know what you refer to.

I mean that WinUAE would draw 60 frames per second instead of 50.  To this end it would have to simulate what the eye would see at the same moment if there were only 50 frames.  But I suppose it would require a lot of processing power, as this would demand from the emulator that it anticipate the next frame and scale the image and colours with antialiasing techniques.

I will test the latest versions of UAE when I find the time.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2008, 11:47:42 PM »
@Krusher

OK, I will remember.


@bloodline

This kind of unnecessary rude talk is a common problem in forums.  I know my hypotheses are clumsy, but I have absolutely no technical knowledge on the subject, so advices are more welcome than insults.  What makes you think that I am stuck 18 years in the past ?

My aim is precisely to replace my real Amiga by an emulator, at least on my desk as I'm lacking space.  To this end, a few years ago I tested several emulators on various PCs and various monitors including TVs, tried a few software hacks, without success as far as animation was concerned.

Now my main computer is a 2007 Apple Mac Mini, and I still haven't managed to obtain normal animation in UAE.  I am willing to buy a PC again if this is the only solution, but since my finances are not in a good shape, I am still gathering feedback.

Anyway you are using a Mac, so if I am ignorant, then please explain me how these issues have been solved and how you manage to obtain normal animation on your Mac.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 12:15:55 AM »
@bloodline

Well, thanks, when I find the time I will make sure I do everything right.  If it works this is good news for me...


@Krusher

...and I would not have to buy any PC.  I still haven't considered the Minimig yet.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2008, 03:46:00 PM »
To my knowledge AmigaHope is making an accurate description of the animation problem, and will soon receive some insults from rough specimen Bloodline.

@Hammer

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Are you claiming jerky frame rates while playing back 24FPS on 60hz LCD with PureVideo HD or Avivo HD video processor?


The frame rate would not be accurate, but animation would not be jerky either since there's no moving 2D object, except in special circumstances such as a smooth credits scrolling (but if they are common in TV shows I can't remember seeing any in films).  In emulators however you will get jerky animation on moving 2D objects or scrollings.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2008, 11:58:44 PM »
@persia

"Collectors/historians" may recognize themselves in your comparison, but as far as the animation problem is concerned, I think that your comment is irrelevant.

It would be relevant if it was a question of subjectivity, but it's not : the animation problem is an objective technical incompatibility.

It would be relevant too if it was about an incidental detail, for example the look and feel of a real Amiga being missing in Amiga emulators.  But it's not : animation is one of the principal qualities of the Amiga, so that it is an essential quality of numerous games (and demos).  Without normal animation, numerous games' (and demos) aesthetics are hidden : it's like condemning any music masterpiece to arbitrary chaotic rythmics.  As a result, not only is the best works' aesthetic identity lost, but the work of art itself is harmed in such a process, and - in my opinion - destroyed.

So, as far as 2D animation is concerned, your judgement is not true : the emulated Amiga is not more refined despite its differences, but less refined.  If it was more refined I would agree with you : but animation is essential, and it is the only reason why I still have to use a real Amiga although I would prefer to use emulators.

Your judgement is not true even if we consider the whole 2D animation on PC and Mac computers : I have never seen any good 2D animation on a PC or Mac, whatever the era and computing power, except a few text scrollings in a few old pirate intros and one - only one ! but there may be more - MS-Dos PC game of the early 90s (I think it was "Magic Pockets" but it must be confirmed), while most Amiga games have perfect animation.  The Amiga is not the only one : some other computers or consoles using video screen modes (hence offering an easy way to synchronize animation with the refresh rate) had perfect animation, especially the Commodore 64 and the Sega Megadrive/Genesis.  The appearance of DirectX could have been the time to make 2D animation easier on a PC, but instead it favoured 3D animation for good, which is another subject.  So as far as 2D animation is concerned, what you call refinement is in fact both technical and aesthetic regression, since the PC and Mac have won the game although 2D animation has always been neglected on these systems.  

In addition, your point of view seems to confuse technology and aesthetics.  If you think that refinement is just a matter of technology, I'm afraid it is nobody's business but yours.  But I know you would not be the only one : in this Lemon64 thread I had a hard time trying to introduce some (strongly studied but obviously unorthodox) musical point of view on a computer forum among numerous people sharing a similar confusion that made them very touchy, which I didn't expect at all.

In conclusion, as for me even the mouse pointer's motion in emulators is too bad to be bearable, in my experience Amiga emulators are a sad and unrewarding waste as long as this problem stands in the way.  As I am not interested in computers and not knowledgeable in that domain, but passionately fond of some digital works of art (including some Amiga games), I feel a bit frustrated and helpless, especially when knowledgeable people say they don't even notice or care about the problem.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2008, 01:44:13 AM »
@bloodline

It's not because somebody's wrong that he speaks rubbish.

Of course it's possible that I am wrong : I still have to double-check all E-UAE settings following your advice, and I still have to see WinUAE on a brand new PC.

If you get perfect animation, why did you post this : http://www.troubled-mind.com/output.mp4 ?
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2008, 05:39:02 PM »
@bloodline

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But it is rubbish when one speaks with authority on a subject about which they have no evidence to support.


You are right : I should have added one "to my knowledge" to the paragraph you quoted.  But my omission doesn't justify your vocabulary, and if I had no evidence I wouldn't say anything.  My experience is fact but is only experience.

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WinUAE will provide the most accurate emulation.


I still have to buy a new PC - or install Windows on the Mac.  To date I have only tried Amiga emulation on my new Mac and others' PC (and on my 8 years old PC), so I may have skipped some settings.

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That video is 50fps upsampled to 60fps using Apples H.264 encoder. I don't care if I'm right or wrong, I just want the truth and will happily provide the evidence I used to support my position.


OK - I thought you had managed to output exactly what you see.

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I grant you that it doesn't look as good as it does out of the Emulator (the uncompressed video is 400meg so I won't post it), but even as an mp4 it still looks better than my Amigas do on a real TV...


This mp4's animation can only be worse than real Amiga animation, whatever the monitor or TV (this is not experience but indisputable fact).  Only the picture's sharpness and colours can be better depending on your screen.




@D

Thanks : I'm relieved at last somebody does not totally disagree with me on a question of music !

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I still maintain that (as someone put quite well earlier in the thread) the issue is largely subjective, some have eyes that are simply less sensitive than others.


I agree that perception is individual, but in the case of a 50 Hz on 60 Hz projection it is at least an objective issue, since some original frames are displayed more times than others.

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Just to clarify (my apologies if I'm sounding repetitive), WinUAE, running demos @ 50 or 100Hz on a CRT, in some cases does look nearly perfect to me.


In my experience it does not, as synchronization is not accurate - about C64 emulators some people say that Windows does not manage "VBLANK" synchronization accurately but I don't know what it means exactly.  At least I seem to remember that emulation speed has to be adapted to the exact refresh rate, as I seem to remember that the VGA rates don't exactly equal PAL's 50.12 Hz or its multiples.

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No offense intended, but that video looks like ass IMHO... I have yet to check it on a CRT (or LCD with "fast" response time), but the trees in particular don't scroll smoothly at all.


To my knowledge CRT and fast response time only make things worse at the same refresh rate, as they make the problem even clearer.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2008, 08:47:24 PM »
The best I could obtain in 100 Hz on a CRT monitor was C64 emulator CCS64 showing only one animation jump every second or so, but as far as C64 emulators are concerned I still have to try Hoxs64, which has a reputation for being more accurate.

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As an aside, the SOTB 3 title screen is another good one to check for scrolling issues.)


Even the Workbench's mouse pointer is a good witness... Most horizontal or vertical text scrollings are strong - and common - indicators as well.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2008, 01:40:46 PM »
@D

Thanks for these details.  What you say corresponds to what I have experienced until now.

I tried Powerstrip : all it did was crashing the computer so I didn't insist, but this may be an option indeed.


@stefcep2

Thanks for your comments.

I would not say that the Amiga once tried to be a PC, as the PC wasn't more suitable than the Amiga for the kind of software you quote (except maybe the "chunky" vs "planar" processing but I suppose that processing power could compensate) : the PC was favoured for marketing reasons rather than technical reasons.


@Hammer

If I understand well, such an interpolation is usefeul in films or wholly moving screens because it suppresses the "pauses" that occur when a frame is repeated.

But if it only adds frames it can't improve 2D animation, especially for objects that moves on the screen without changing shape, because in it motion must be regular.  Every added frame will just slow animation down instead of stopping it, so instead of getting jerky animation you will just get wavy animation : it won't make the motion regular.  In order to reproduce 2D animation accurately on a different refresh rate, you would need to redraw every frame to make it correspond to what the eye would see at the same moment if the display's frame rate was right.
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2008, 02:20:26 PM »
@Hammer

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Are seriously comparing AGA vs AVIVO HD or PureVideo HD?

What is AGA's HQV score again?


You seem to be out of sync with the topic, if I may say.  ;-)

The animation problem we are discussing is independant of processing power.  It is a physical problem - the difference between the emulated screen's refresh rate (in other words the emulated frame rate) and the emulator screen's refresh rate.

On the other hand, there is a misunderstanding about the words "2D animation", which I clarify in my previous post.  Perfect 2D animation of moving objects is designed for only one refresh rate, unlike movies.

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The whole point about "motion interpolation" is to avoid judder issues e.g. playing 24FPS video on 60hz/120hz display.


Yes, and this point is not enough for emulated Amiga 2D animation.