WinUAE exposing how crappy Windows is

[the_leander]

There are nice things about the Amiga, and bad things about Windows. But the registry surely isn't that bad. Even Linux uses some kind of DataBase for APT for example... The implementation may no be that good, but the registry idea isn't a bad idea.

Just about any remotely modern desktop or server OS you care to point at will have some form of database type system to handle the sorts of things that windows registry does.

As you and others state, having such a system isn't an inherently bad thing, even if a given example has some weaknesses.

--edit--

Also:

MUI

/thread.

[the_leander]

I seems like you are telling me the more items you have to search the same speed it goes.

It does search at the same speed. Over a larger number of entries. Unless you do something really, really stupid.

The registry isn't a text file. It is a database file, which is a tree.

The time it takes will obviously increase as the database gets larger, but , but it is far quicker than going through individual text and binary files and that speed difference will only become more apparent as the number of text/binary files increases.

[the_leander]

Using MUI as an example, if the equivalent software ie a GUI replacement system, were installed for Windows or Linux-where people do run KDE and Gnome- what would be more difficult to do:  finding and deleting MUI debris, or finding and deleting the equivalent in Windows or Linux?

Assuming that the person performing this task was as conversant with the inner workings of both OS's, it would be fairly even.

Difference is that it takes a lot longer to get as knowledgeable with Linux than a relatively simple OS like AmigaOS.

[the_leander]

That really sums up my thoughts nicely.  Microsoft themselves can't even make a regtool that doesn't break something because the registry is such a huge mess.

Right because systems never change or add anything new over time.

What might have worked once on older versions of the OS no longer does as it interferes with newer functionality in later OS's. So, do Microsoft spend millions in building a brand new tool with the risk of getting into yet another lawsuit due to its monopoly position? Or do they simply say "sod it" and retire the tool?

Answers on the back of a postcard to the usual address.

And the reason you don't have a better solution to using a database to provide the functionality that the registry offers is because there isn't one.

Sure, Microsoft could make it stricter so as to weed out the app developers who have taken a quick and dirty approach to dealing with it, or change it to be more human friendly. But to put it bluntly, users cause enough damage to their systems as it is, without inviting them to muck around with core bits of the OS.

Regarding "clutter". Out of the box Windows, or in fact any of the big three OS's currently in the desktop market offer more functionality than AmigaOS could offer if you grabbed every third party hack/patch and or replacement piece off of aminet.

And patched up to the gills, AmigaOS isn't exactly pretty to deal with either.

[the_leander]

what functionality do Win 7, OS X and Ubuntu have out of the box that a patched Amiga OS don't?  OS functionality, not apps.

I'll start the ball rolling with this one, as I'm sure others will be able to provide more instances:

True, segregated multi-user support.
Firewalled TCP/IP stack that is built deep into the system.
Full memory protection. OS4 redresses this somewhat, but it's not nearly as effective as in the others.
Fully functional network file sharing.
A HAL worth a damn.
SMP

As for the restriction on apps. Many users might well argue that things such as iTunes or WMP represent core functionality within the OS.

 i can find me way around the core OS files more intuitively than any linux distro or Windows version i have used.

Apparently you didn't get what I was aiming at.

I wrote:

patched up to the gills, AmigaOS isn't exactly pretty to deal with either

You put in 20, 30 plus patches into a 3.x system with all the trimmings and suddenly one of your favourite apps stops working.

Good luck trawling through it all to find out which one of those patches (or if you're especially lucky, combination thereof) is the culprit.

Been there, done that. Wasn't fun.

[the_leander]

I don't care, I'm the only user.

You absolute hypocrite. All the times you had a pop at other people of dismissing your points because they said "I don't use it".

It's a level of security that AmigaOS lacks.

There is no 100% secure OS

That wasn't the question, you asked what these OS's offered out of the box, I told you. That's all there is to it. That some offer better variations than others is outside of the question you asked.

Yes a system with MP is better than one without

End of.

Yes, but a lot of nice third-party Amiga hardware seemed to work fine anyway.

Good luck installing your OS4.x for A1 on a Sam.

In contrast I can and have installed Linux from the same disk on everything from a single P2 system to a coreduo.

That is the power of a HAL.

Equivalent media player software is available as open-source alternatives.

Rhythmbox, Elisa etc.

Both of which are in of themselves apps, but sit on frameworks that are built into the OS itself and comes out of the box. It isn't that AOS just lacks the apps, it's that it lacks the frameworks upon which these apps rely on to operate.

I imagine that parts of WMP's framework can be accessed in a similar fashion by third party apps. I wouldn't be surprised if the library functions within iTunes on OSX are in part tied to the OS's search engine that again could be tapped by other software...

The point is when it happens on Amiga, its usually something that starts from user-startup, WBstartup, changes a shared Lib, or executes something in C. I have more hope in tracking it down than I do Win 7, or Ubuntu.

Heh, you still don't get it (colour me shocked). That you personally are very proficient with AOS but not so much with the other two is utterly irrelevant to the point I was making - which is that once loaded up with everything, AOS can be and is a pita to sort out when it's patched to the hilt.

[the_leander]

whats good for the goose...

You really are pathetic.

 And if the malware to take advantage of is so uncommon and unlikely, what then?

Again, outside of the scope of the question being asked.

To recap since you seem determined to cause an argument:

You said:

what functionality do Win 7, OS X and Ubuntu have out of the box that a patched Amiga OS don't? OS functionality, not apps.

And for the record, there is more to Linux than Ubuntu, and even within Ubuntu there are better choices for an easy out of the box experience than the primary offerings.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA.  go herehttp://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=327.  Go there tomorrow,  Go there 6 months from now,  try 6 months ago.  SAME STORY, whatever the time.  Thousands upon thousands of users with hardware that DOESN'T WORK, some not at all, some not without alot of fartsing about. And this with THE MOST popular Linux distro in history.

Because I certainly couldn't find in this site any number of complaints about hardare issues on an Amiga...

And whilst some people will have issues with a given distro on specific hardware, in practice many others will not. Also, where did I mention Ubuntu?
Oh that's right, I didn't.

Linux will not play the most common audio (mp3) and video (mpeg 2/ dvd) out of the box.

It did here. No downloading, just hit play and *bam* it played. Thats for mp3s, dvd, avi, mov, wmv and flv.

I can't even get Totem to play a fricken' audio CD, and no-one can tell me why.

Because Totem is a pile of shite and everyone (apart from you, apparently) knows it. Mplayer, Rhythmbox. Enjoy.

 But thats besides the point.  Amiga can play mp3, and mpeg2, what "framework" are you trying to muddy the waters with?  

So can Linux, that your particular choice and lack of competence within that choice fails you is irrelevant.

The framework I pointed to with Rhythmbox and Elisa is gstreamer, which coincidentally is what Totem uses as well.
 

Right: VLC relies on WMPS "framework" to work.

Nope. Way to fail again.

Sidenote: VLC can be made to use OS codecs. It however is OS agnostic and so does not access many OS specific features outside of video and sound.

Strawman coming in 3...2...1...

 Wait a minute, VLS works in Linux and there is no WMP there...WTF are you on about?

Oh look, you've picked out a multi platform application that runs pretty much standalone from the rest of the system, duplicating many things available within its host systems in the desire to remain portable and easy to maintain, rather than an OS specific application that makes use of that OS's features.

A wonderful strawman. Well played!

Yeah its all about search engines.

Spotlight can be accessed by third party programs and it's results parsed however you want.

Proficiency has very little to do with it.

It has everything to do with it.

We're done.

[the_leander]

@the_leander

Your replies speak for themselves.

Yes, it's a shame you're incapable of understanding them.

1.  Theoretically lack of multi-user and MP make AmigaOS less secure.  In reality, it means SFA as a)the risk of malware  is negligible

You have malware on the brain. Malware isn't the only (or even the most dangerous) risk factor for a computer that having a multi user environment in place protects against.

Case in point: My sister was given a Win98 laptop some years back, she decided to and I quote "tidy up" the internal file structure, which meant renaming and deleting about 2 3rds of the OS before it finally shat itself.

When she later got an XP box, I made sure she ran in a limited user account to avoid repetition.

2.  I referred to  Ubuntu as it is BY FAR the mostly widely used distro.

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to provide a citation of that. And whilst you're at it you may wish to look into the numerous variants based off of it before you make a complete arse of yourself... Again.

 Totem is its default media player.  Ergo its the most widely used Linux media player out of the box.  Ditto lack of mp3 and DVD playback in Ubuntu.  Its what most Linux users would confront out of the box.  

Until you provide proof of your claims, your conclusions are equally worthless.

3.  I referred to VLC precisely to negate your BS "WMP as an OS  framework used by third party media players without which you can't playback media files" argument.  I achieved my aim.  The rest is just waffle.

There is nothing BS about it. And way to totally ignore what I actually said and at the same time bypass your own original question.

You created a strawman. Nothing more nothing less.

4.  Spotlight?  You claimed iTunes could be considered an integral part of the OS.

I told no such lies.

Here is what I said, for the flids among us:

I wouldn't be surprised if the library functions within iTunes on OSX are in part tied to the OS's search engine that again could be tapped by other software...

Way to misrepresent everything that has been said to you. Come back to the site when you learn to read.

5.  Competence has nothing to do with the fact that one OS has sensibly named folders and  file names, and another doesn't or requires you to execute and remember a gazillion shell commands just to do simple thing.  

Competence has everything to do with it. It all "makes sense" once you understand it. And whilst Vanilla AOS3.x may well be easier to learn thanks to its simple size, the moment you actually move out of that and start applying patches and full blown replacement bits to it, things get complex real fast.

Linux, Windows and OSX might have slightly tougher learning curves when it comes to delving into their guts, but the flip side is that with the latter two at least, there is far less need as they come with fairly sane default settings and enough functionality built in to not necessitate hacking away at them, Linux too if you choose your distro correctly can provide a very elegant out of the box experience, though with that you do have to be a little pickier with your hardware choice than windows. The other point is that kids today are being brought up on Windows practically from the cradle, for them, the Amiga would be as alien to their way of handling a computer as some hardcore Linux or BSDs would be.

 That thread`must have cut you,

Not at all, tbh I'd all but forgotten about it until you started acting the hypocrite.

[the_leander]

Nope. Not unless you want to fix something.  I guess an expert like you just reinstalls Windows when they have an issue?  Oh, wait, you've never had a problem. Right?

One of the really nice features that Windows has is it's repair option - the ability to roll back to your last previously known good settings.

It's so good that even Linux distributions are now offering similar facilities that are every bit as user friendly.

And of course, there are always rolling backups for when you really do stuff up.

You may wish to look into these.

As I said to stefcep2, it's all about competence.

As for UAC. Most Linux distros I know expect you to run in a limited user account by default and require you to type in the root password to do things like installing software or altering key files. It's only annoying because you're actually being required to do things in a safe manner.

Running as Admin/root is retarded beyond words.

[the_leander]

You're joking right?

http://tinyurl.com/38xmwna

ZOMG, because an option doesn't always work all the time and in all situations WINDOHS IS TEH EBUL!!!!!

Grow up. There are always going to be situations where restoring a system won't fix a major system hosing. Which is why I stated that Rolling backups were there for when things went seriously wrong.

Yeah, I mean why should "I" be in control of my computer?  How "retarded" of me.

.

Yes, you are retarded, firstly for not running in a limited user account which is a major security issue, and for believing that having to type in an admin password to do potentially system stuffing things somehow renders you out of control.

It's flids like you who make botnet owners happy in their pants.

[the_leander]

I do not really remember. But every time I try to update, install or uninstall drivers and programs, I get told that i must have administrative rights, and it's virtually every day.
But others who use my computer get not use the admin account of course, if I am not inattentive then.

Within a limited user account:

Right click and select "Run as Admin".

Type in your admin password and you're sorted. This goes for drivers, program installation and PITA games whose anti cheating (punkbuster etc) kit requires admin rights to work properly.

[the_leander]

Oh, keep it up!  I'm about to whip out my Win7 CD and urinate all over it!  Then we'll see who's cryin'.

So that's your answer is it? Get called on your complete lack of competence with regards running and administering a windows box and you resort to the above?

I swear there needs to be a law that makes the EDCL or something similar a minimum requirement for owning and operating a computer online.

[the_leander]

People just keep saying, "ignore" the problem!!  

I have to ask, is English your second language?

Because nowhere in this thread has anyone said "ignore it".

I still think it sucks if the OS goes down I have to reinstall every app.

Again, rolling backups. You can back up not just Windows, but everything that you installed.

In the event of a catastrophic failure, such as running in an Admin account on a system that is connected to the net (it's only a matter of time). You can restore from your backup everything, including your apps.

I love on Amiga that apps are seperate from the OS.

If I want to install a different version of the OS or test out Workbench replacements, that has ZERO effect on my programs partition.  

You do know you can have partitions on x86 systems too, right? And that there are apps that are designed to run as standalone for windows, yes? Even big name applications.

The "united" registry of crap-dome is a bad design.

You repeating a lie does not make it true.

Other OS's that use a database to store key settings, hardware config details and file locations for quick access include but are not limited to:

BeOS, MacOSX, Linux, BSD, IRIX, Solaris.

Having a database for these things is sound system design. That some third parties play fast and loose with it is not Microsofts fault any more than it would be for any other OS producer.

That it isn't easy to understand to the layman also isn't a bad thing: It scares off some people who might otherwise be tempted to start messing with settings.

[the_leander]

I could have all my games and apps installed on a portable HD.  Take it with me and plug it in a friends house and be able to run all "my" apps from "my" drive.  You can do this with Amiga.

Try that with WordWorth, or any other application that installs assigns and libs necessary for it to run on a system that hasn't had it installed. Watch as they fall on their arse.

The fact is, you're talking utter nonsense. Especially when it comes to the more complex applications the Amiga has.

There are plenty of apps out there, including big name apps that offer "portable" versions, as Arkhan says, a lot of games are going this way.

[the_leander]

Too much unnecessary stress.

Reducing your risk to malware and every once in a while having to type in an admin password counts as stress these days?

Regardless, the best computer WAS Amiga.

And not even the best in it's class.