Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: PC still playing Amiga catchup  (Read 226103 times)

Description:

0 Members and 45 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #59 from previous page: June 18, 2009, 12:48:51 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;511973
I never even argued point about ASM vs. high level languages with you before so stop lieing.


Actually you have repeatedly gone on about how APIs are so slow without providing any data whatsoever to back it up. You sir, are lying.

Quote from: amigaksi;511973
You are in a fairyland because you are inept to even comprehend what I am stating.  I can also write insults, but I prefer rationality.


Right... The hardware guys, the software guys, and everyone in between else have effectively stated in various degrees of detail where you are going wrong. You willfully ignore this and continue talking about something that isn't (your makebelief world of total hardware compatability) in order to shore up your argument. Anyone using logic would have long ago started to re-evaluate their position. That you haven't shows you to be nothing more then a fundie.

Quote from: amigaksi;511973

I already gave citation in this thread.


No, you gave a p-poor example that was shot down soundly by every other person on this thread for a variety of reasons.

Quote from: amigaksi;511973
You only reply many days later


Oh I'm sorry, some of us have a life outside of evangelising 20 year old hardware.

Quote from: amigaksi;511973

>You're bitching at someone else dismissing a highly specialised and none too often used tech?

I compared with both USB and Gameport.  Where have you been?


Which brings us back to the point that Gameport has been dead for the better part of 10 years now and unavailable to purchase via soundcards outside of ebay and similar for at least 5.

Quote from: amigaksi;511973

>Hypocrite much?

You are a biased side-kick.  He seems to understand the subject more than you so why not let him reply.


Hah! Biased? Probably, I have a low tollerance for demonstrably BS posts such as those you have been ejaculating.

Quote from: amigaksi;511973


That's not the point.


Yes it is, your original point was that the Amiga was better suited on the basis that it could react faster. You have since modified (I'm being kind here, slimed would be more accurate) your argument when it was shown that your original had no legs.


 
Quote from: amigaksi;511973
I said USB is slower than reading joystick on Amiga.  You are lost.


And you were shot down, you then added the nonsense about the gameport.


Quote from: amigaksi;511973

How many times are you going to keep repeating the same question and not reply to the responses given?  I don't forget that fast.


I have replied whenever asked and no one else has replied with a more technical answer. And to answer your question: I'll stop when you start backing up your argument with facts instead of baseless statements.

Quote from: amigaksi;511973

Good for you.  There's about a billion Gameports out there so it's still should be considered in the analysis along with USB.


Err, no. As has been pointed out (repeatedly), Gameport is dead, in the same way that ISA is dead. Or are you now going to go on about other random legacy I/O to prove the supposed superiority?

Quote from: amigaksi;511973

You can fantasize with your fairy tales all you want.


It was a reasonable point. That you can't see it only goes to back up my assersions that you're nothing but a fundie.

Quote from: amigaksi;511973
It's a fact that gameports and USB devices are both out there.  As I stated, people still sell joysticks based on gameport.  XP supported gameports as well and most people where I live still use XP.


By that same argument, so is ISA and I suspect if you looked hard enough, MFM and other wonderful ports of yesteryear. So again you've been thoroughly shot down on, well everything you've said so far, got anything else or are you done making a fool of yourself?



TL;DR

NO U
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2009, 12:49:27 PM »
Tl;dr

no u
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2009, 01:26:19 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;512024
If you think I need data to back up a logical statement that APIs are slower than going direct to hardware, you have a problem.


When it's tied to such gems as "PC I/Os aren't that fast". You're right, I do have a problem, because as has been pointed out, any reduction in performance by the API has more then been offset by the increase in hardware speed. Unless you can show the numbers, the whole argument fails. This is what I was trying to get accross to you with the point about objectivity - you don't dismiss something that big and get to claim to still be objective or logical.

Quote from: amigaksi;512024

Give the link.


Start at the beginning till you're back here.

Quote from: amigaksi;512024

Wrong.  Some people sided with me.  But you haven't even replied to refutations handed to you so why would you read those.


Those "refutations" have been sliced and diced by better folk than I. And the of those that "sided with you", with the exception of stefcep2, each and every one of them did so with caveats that tore the argument propper to pieces.

Quote from: amigaksi;512024

You have no understanding of what I wrote


I question that you understand half of it, certainly given your responses at times.

Quote from: amigaksi;512024
Because insults don't seem to change the truth or affect me.


You're quite correct, doesn't change the point that you're wrong on every level on this one.

Quote from: amigaksi;512024
Amiga can sample at 15Khz not just 1Khz.


Oh it's 15khz, got anything to prove that the Amiga can actually differentiate the signal bounce from the actual pulse then?

Quote from: amigaksi;512024


Go reply then.  All my arguments have a REALITY basis.


Why? Others already have, in far greater detail and covering points I would not have thought of.

Quote from: amigaksi;512024

If you read your own comments in this thread, you will see that you have modified your views.  I can still use Gameport under Vista/XP and I never dismissed USB either which by the way can also be put in Amiga machines.


And again, you can use ISA on XP as well (why you'd want to is another matter entirely).
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2009, 01:48:42 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;512035
Don't mix things again to confuse people.  Chewbacca Defense.


I think you should re read what you've written.
 
Quote from: amigaksi;512035

PC I/O is slower than processor speed and memory speed (separate point).
Regardless of how fast the hardware speed, APis are slower than going direct to hardware.


Which has for the last time been noted, but with the caveat that the I/O in question is an order or two of magnitude faster then what you're comparing it against, the result being that the speed loss in software is more then made up for in raw hardware performance.

How are you not getting this?

Quote from: amigaksi;512035

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWW


Quote from: amigaksi;512035


>Oh it's 15khz, got anything to prove that the Amiga can actually differentiate the signal bounce from the actual pulse then?

Here it is again: Chewbacca Defense.


I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.

Until you can show (with real, verifiable evidence) that the Amiga can react to such input your whole argument is bunk.
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2009, 12:08:16 AM »
Quote from: Wayne;512157
Now all we need is for someone to get mad, call the other person a Nazi and our lives will be complete..

Wayne


Hmm, did you just godwin yourself? :lol:

Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2009, 12:53:58 AM »
Quote from: Fanscale;512190
Someone should post a photo of a chimpanzee preening session, for first nitpicker. That behaviour is also guaranteed.


I'll add that to the list of stock images I'm collecting and will upload to my photobucket accound when needed :lol:
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2009, 01:01:35 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;512193

But they also fixed bugs in higher and higher versions of DirectX; so you need to know whether to avoid the bugs or not.  


And this is different to hardware bugs, or (unknown to the author) unexpected differences in hardware how?

Quote from: amigaksi;512193

No, you don't need an API.  Windows for each task keeps track of an IOPM and it can set IOPM to enable hardware ports needed by that application and application directly accesses that port without any API/drivers involved.


If that's the case, why, in the name of all that is holy, have you been railing against windows and specifically its APIs like they nailed your mom in your bed for 50+ pages?
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2009, 11:52:41 AM »
Quote from: Hammer;512453
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/sony-playstation-ps3-developers-hirai,news-3346.html

"Sony says PS3 Intentionally Hard for Developers"

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?" explained Hirai.


That's a very interesting way of saying "we f%%ked up on both our hardware development and developer tools". In fact it's so bad now that Activision are threatening to pull out of the market. Having difficult to code for hardware and poor dev tools is fine if you're the market leader such as with PS2. But PS3 is trailing hard behind both Wii and the 360 in terms of numbers and both of those have mature and efficient dev suites available to them. Tbh I can see the PS3 being this generations Dreamcast.
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2009, 03:27:52 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;512510
Strange that the lack of 16-bit mode in AMD64 is lambasted but the lack of direct hardware backwards compatibility for the 680x0 series is ignored ;)


Ahh, but you have to understand, this is what he means by "objectivity".

It only counts if it can be twisted (no matter by how much) to support his argument. :lol:
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2009, 04:52:07 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;512535
You are being biased.


I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Quote from: amigaksi;512535

 If I go from 680x0 to 80486, I can say they are NOT compatible.  If I go from 68000 to 68020, you can't treat it the same way "NOT compatible."


Did you even bother to read... No wait, by your responses I already know the answer to that one.  

Quote from: amigaksi;512535
That's being biased.


I really don't.
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2009, 05:03:43 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;512544
You are biased if you think the 68000 is incompatible with 680x0 processors.  


There are incompatabilities and they're so great that they need emulation to cover. They also change from model to model.

Quote from: amigaksi;512544

minor differences.


So minor that the Phase5 had to provide dummy 68040 libraries to even allow an 060 based accelerator card to boot.

Quote from: amigaksi;512544
You don't know what biased means although you are exemplifying it.


Disagreeing with your patent and demonstratable nonsense!=biased.

You are SG and I claim my £5.
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2009, 05:18:34 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;512550
Mind you, CyberPatcher was a fantastic system though. Why trap unimplemented instructions when you can replace them with a direct branch to the handler code after the first trap?


I ended up using Oxypatcher in the end for pretty much this reason. The speed boost was phenominal - what would take me 4 or more hours to render would take me a little over 2.

Further to my original point though. Try removing 68040.library on an Amiga that uses an 040 processor and see how far it gets you...
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2009, 05:21:21 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;512551
"Great" for you.  They purposely tried to make them compatible-- what minor differences there are don't compare with eliminating the 16-bit mode completely.


See my previous post.

Quote from: amigaksi;512551

>Disagreeing with your patent and demonstratable nonsense!=biased.

Nonsense that I think 68000 is compatible with 68020 and you don't.


Citation please. I think you'll find no such post where I say these two models are "incompatable".
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2009, 10:11:58 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;512603
I did, it's your normal misunderstanding.


Aparently I understand enough about the differences to know that as each model was produced, more and more emulation had to be put in place to cover. The situation by the time we get to the 040 and the 060 those differences are so great that AmigaOS will not boot without having patches in place. Something you are trying to squirm around that now by citing the 68020 only. Bt


Quote from: amigaksi;512603

>Citation please. I think you'll find no such post where I say these two models are "incompatable".

So they are compatible like it states here:



Oh no you don't, you accused me of being:

Quote from: amigaksi;512544
biased if you think the 68000 is incompatible with 680x0 processors.  


So again, citation please. I think you'll find no such post where I say these two models are "incompatable".

Quote from: amigaksi;512603


http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/68020/


LOL! You call that evidence? So we have Karlos who has the actual Motorola manuals, which explain the various difficulties and potential coding pitfalls with regard the 68k. You have the rest of the Amiga using world knowing full well that if you yank the 040 library from an 040 Amiga system it won't boot (same for the 060) and you have what amounts to a magazine brochure... Come back when you get a clue.
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2009, 11:47:47 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;512648

So in short, yes you can "boot" an 040 system without the library, but it really isn't worth it.


I stand corrected. However, having to disable important parts of the OS as well as hobbling the cpu and leaving you needing prayer that what you're using doesn't do anything that would normally be caught by 68040.library to me seems even worse then it simply refusing to boot at all.
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3448
    • Show all replies
    • http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/
Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2009, 12:03:05 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;512648


So in short, yes you can "boot" an 040 system without the library, but it really isn't worth it.


I stand corrected.

My system had any number of patches that necessitated the need for the MMU's presence. Having to loose most of the performance both in terms of software patches and hobbling the cpu would imho be as bad as it simply not booting - the result would be much the same as I wouldn't be able to use half of the software I owned at the time. Also having to pray that none of the software I could still use called one of those unsupported instructions does not inspire confidence.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 12:07:27 PM by the_leander »
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]