How is OS4 ?

[drHirudo]

from those who use it, or have in the past, how is amiga OS4 ?

Whats cool and fun ?

Well, if you have experience with AmigaOS 3.x, here are some of the features that I love in AmigaOS 4 and reasons for not looking back at the classic Amigas:

AmigaOS 4 advantages

1. No boot partition size limit. No more 4GB partition Hard Disk limit crap. I know this was fixed with some patches in AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9, but if you needed to boot without Startup-Sequence, it can destroy your boot partition if it is bigger than 4GB. I know a friend who had 24 partitions in a 100GB hard drive. Painful to sort.
2. No more FastFileSystem crap. You can use SFS for boot partition on AmigaOS 4. AmigaOS 4.1 have the nice JXFilesystem. I never ever lost a file with JXFilesystem. I lost some files with the SFS, but I easily recovered them. With FastFileSystem, I lost lots of files during the years. Validation gives me headaches, because I don't know what file is truncated after it.
3. Virtual Memory. No more usage of simple and dangerous to the system MMU hacks. Virtual Memory is presented and built-in and I use it a lot, since my Amiga is only 256 MB RAM. But even if I had 10GB of RAM I still would write movies to RAM: and watch them from there and if I forget about them in the RAM. Having SWAP: is a nice feature.
4. No more need for third party software to connect to the Internet. With AmigaOS 3.1 you need something like Miami, which you can not register anymore. Good luck with the limited demo for 30 minutes. NetConnect was not working good with me on my Amiga 4000.
5. ASL requester with the possibility to sort with a single click. I open many files very often. With big directories, the old ASL was a pain for finding files. Now with a single click I sort by Name, Size, Date. Selecting files now is much easier and fun.
6. No more need for second monitor if you are with graphics card and want to play old games or something goes wrong at bootup. The RTG system is built-in, you don't need to search for patches for specific graphics card.
7. GrimReaper - if a program is not stripped, the Grim tells a lot about the reasons for the message to appear. This is very handy for developers. On AmigaOS 3.9 I used MMULib/MuTools and MuForce (Enforcer alike program), but the GRIM is much much better.
8. Very good SDK. I used a lot VBCC on AmigaOS 3.9. I still use it on AmigaOS 4, now compiling for AmigaOS 3 and 4. But the AmigaOS 4.x have many more libraries included, which were pain to install with AmigaOS 3.9.
9. AmigaInput - now I can play games with wide variety of joysticks. I can configure the buttons to my liking, I can set the threshold for the analog paddles. In AmigaOS 3.9, the support for Joysticks with several buttons is limited.
10. No more need to put commodities and programs in WBStartup and manage AmigaOS startup with hacks like WBStartup/Enabled and WBStartup/Disabled or similar. The new startup modules management is very nice.
11. Notification system. Not much talked about and discussed feature of AmigaOS 4, but I like when tunes names popup when listening to online radio. It can have many other uses like notification for downloaded files, new e-mail etc...
12. SObjects - shared objects. Some programs use them. Additional plus of AmigaOS 4.
13. AmiUpdate. No more need for manual search for updates. Many programs are already in AmiUpdate.
14. System RollBack - part of AmiUpdate, where you can roll back to old system.
15. AHI is a standart. No more need to mix the Paula out and the audio card out if you want to use a single audio output.

The list can go on and on. But I will leave it to other AmigaOS 4 users to add more features they love of AmigaOS 4 over AmigaOS 3.
Hope this helps. If you are familiar with AmigaOS, you will love AmigaOS 4.
Regards

[drHirudo]

For instance Phase5 products all support 64bit directly, so there are no such issues. Works even with KS 3.0.

And what happens if you need to press 2 and disable the accelerator for some old game? I wouldn't take the risk of having over 4GB partition in this case.

You can use SFS boot partition with AmigaOS 3.x as well. Actually you really should use PFS3 with AmigaOS 3.x though (it's becoming freeware, too) :-)

And what happens if you need to boot from some other partion for some reason and it does not have SFS? I want to be able to access the old boot partition as well.

Whether virtual memory is dangerous or not depends on the applications you run. VMM worked just fine even with KS 3.0 and 68030 already.

I assume it was part of the OS? All the VMM applications I used on AmigaOS 3 sucked badly. There is a reason almost noone used VMM on AmigaOS 3. On AmigaOS 4, VMM is part of the OS. It's transparent. I hardy see anyone turning it off. Its a nice plus. I prefer to have it, and it works.

AmigaOS 3.9 includes AmiTCP/IP, but admittedly with a questionable license.

Not as good as Miami. The AmigaOS 4 TCP/IP stack is even better than Miami in my experience.

SmartCrash provided the functionality years ago already for AmigaOS 3.x. Okay it wasn't included with the OS, I admit. But there's nothing special about Grim Reaper itself.

GrimReaper helps the developers by being included in the OS. Every user who have problems with some software can very easily generate a log and send it to the developer. SmartCrash is not built-in and requires extra effort from the user to install it. I prefer to have it. It's built-in. Its established standard already.

I remember reading some stark criticism about this new system, too.

People who used the old systems for decades, surely had a hard time with the new system, but to me it seems they fixed it fast and now they are used to the more elegant and transparent new system.

It's easy to create normal amiga shared libraries with per caller data. bsdsocket.library is a common example, every AmigaOS 3.x installation with a networking installed has such library installed. The added bonus is that you don't need to load the code in memory for every caller, like you have to with AmigaOS 4 SObjects.

It's easy for AmigaOS 3.0 to run Windows binaries, but this is only in theory. In practice this was posted from AmigaOS 4, which is a nice system and I like it over AmigaOS 3.

[drHirudo]

Nothing?

Okay, good answers to the questions. Probably you don't have experience with these, but I have and I know there are problems.

You gave good reasons for using AmigaOS 4. Because on AmigaOS 3, nothing will happen when you try to do some of the tasks. So you will not do the work, where on AmigaOS 4 it will work impeccable.

On AmigaOS 4 everything is more elegant and transparent than on AmigaOS 3. It is more up to date with the current requirements for Operating System. That is why every AmigaOS 3 user will love AmigaOS 4.

Piru, it seems when your OS of choise don't have VMM, nobody shall use it, even with that machine with only 128MB of RAM? My machine have only 256 MB RAM. VMM came in handly when I compiled the SAM Coupe emulator. For image processing VMM is even more handy.

Also, you deliberately skipped some of my points, but seeing that your OS of choise lacks them, it is quite understandable. Good move actually.

[drHirudo]

I didn't have any problems myself. Well maybe they've made it more user friendly? If they have that's certainly a good thing.

Of course it is. Upgrading the OS is about making it more user friendly too. It is all that small advantages that make AmigaOS 4 easier to use over AmigaOS 3 and many other operating systems. If it wasn't for all the small parts that make the OS, I would happily use ProDOS on Apple II and still do some work. Of coure with much more effort.

MorphOS had a virtual memory solution at some point, but it proved way too slow, complex and problem prone to be worth it. If you get an EFIKA you obviously have to live with the limited amount of memory. Even if you'd add a virtual memory solution it'd be really slow on EFIKA due to limited I/O performance. Latest MorphOS release does include some changes to make more memory available for the applications, however.

Good to know. Sometime I want to test application if it will suit me. If it requires too much memory, for a certain task, I still will be able to test it, thanks to VMM, without the need to close all other opened applications. Later I can decide if I need more RAM for this exact application. Without VMM on Efika, it will not simply slow down. It will not run, making the machine usage limited.

Why's that? All my systems have minimum 1GB.

Good for you. I have 256MB, because with the VMM, I did not had a reason to upgrade. In some rare situations VMM comes to the rescue, despite the slowdown, but after that, I continue to use my Amiga without problems. Of course the more memory, the better. I don't know what are your reasons for RAM upgrade, but if it was because your OS was not running something, the lack of feature is a limitation of the OS, not the hardware.

Hmm? AmigaOS4 would run out of 256MB memory when compiling? That's odd. Is it because of the memory fragmentation or what?

No, it's because of all the possible optimizations turned On. Plus all the test files saved in RAM:, plus some applications running in the background. You can easily run out of RAM in many situations.

Most certainly with such low amount of memory. Personally I'd just rather upgrade the memory than suffer the speed penalty of the swapping.

As I said, the penalty of swapping is very rare, to justify purchasing RAM upgrade.

Weren't we comparing against AmigaOS 3.x? I skipped the entries where AmigaOS 4 obviously has an edge.

Yes, we are. But you missed to admit that AmigaOS 4 have obvious advantage in these areas.

If we go for MorphOS comparison there's very little OS4 does better.

MorphOS is off-topic! (irrelevant)

[drHirudo]

I assumed that if I didn't give any counterargument it'd be kind of implicit.

I assumed not.

MorphOS is OS of my choice, not AmigaOS 3.x. Misunderstanding there I guess.

[/quote]
No. My initial comparasion was against AmigaOS 3.x. Then you said that nobody shall need VMM, and I pointed situations, when it will come handy. I assumed why you said that VMM is in no use - because your OS of choice lacks it. You confirmed it and confirmed the OS of your choice. I don't see misunderstading here.

[drHirudo]

Provided that the company you bought it from actually still exists in two years, and they have the resources and will to actually honor the warranty. The companies you put your trust in aren't exactly Apple or Sony.

Apple is not producing PPC boards anymore. No AmigaOS runs on Sony hardware.

Acube does indeed seem to be very honest, and apparently they have really good customer care, possibly even as good as Genesi offered the Pegasos customers, at least when it comes to warranty issues. But as a micro-company selling very odd and specialized hardware in relatively small volumes, they can as well be gone in a year.

Most of the defects of electronics appear in the first several months. Many people took the risk and Acube is still there. Genesi is not going to produce PPC boards anymore.

Eyetech is an example of how it can go wrong. They were purely a marketing company with no in-house HW engineering competence of their own. They never acknowledged most of the flaws of their products (either they didn't know due to lack of competence, or they had no financial capability (since the problems were so *massive*), or simply no will), and after a while, they simply left the scene.

Eyetech produced AmigaOne boards. My microA1 works fine. Too bad they did not succeed with their risk.

"A-EON" is another HW marketing company. New, unknown, untried. They will sell a new, unknown, untried product. Nothing is known about their long term financial strength to deal with warranty claims in 1 year and 10 months (what if they will encounter the same massive problems with their HW that Eyetech did?), but they are asking for *pre-payments* to get going. Yet you say "but I will get a two year warranty".

A-EON have very reputable partners - AmigaKit, Hyperion, Varisys. If you don't trust A-EON, at least you can ask their partners, about A-EON. Other information you provide is just a wild guess, coming from nowhere, with agenda towards another hardware.

I find that amusing (and please continue reading).



Well, I don't think Apple is going anywhere, do you? And even if they would run out of spare parts, you would still be better off financially by simply buying another Mac if your first one breaks down, then you would be buying *a single* Sam.

Apple is not going to produce PPC computers anymore.

And the "X1000"? Well, many people here on this very forum reports how they are getting eMac's for $50-$100 a piece. That is complete 1.25 GHz G4 *systems* (including a built-in monitor). If the hinted prices of the "X1000" is correct, you can at least get 15-20 (or more) MorphOS capable systems (yes FIFTEEN TO TWENTY) for the price of *one* "X1000". That's the absurd price difference we are talking about! And I'd be damned if 20 computer dies on you within two years!

You can buy 20 E-Mac computers, and pray their capacitors don't leak on the motherboards. Apple will not respect this failure and will not repair it for free, because your E-Mac is older than 3 years. I would prefer the X1000, because I will put it on my 21 inch TFT monitor and enjoy AmigaOS. I can afford the extra price. I can not afford the extra space for storage of 20 E-Mac computers. Imagine the faces of people who see that you store 20 E-Mac computers as backup. As a plus, the X1000 is faster and better specced than E-Mac.

[drHirudo]

Anyway, to summarise regarding .so ...

Not all shared libraries can be readily implemented as .library files, at least without someone actually working out how to implement the required features and going on to produce a compiler that can produce the required output and at least porting the most obvious examples (libstdc++ et al) to that target.

So, OS4 decided to meet the problem halfway by supporting runtime linking of .so files as per the linux example (albeit without sharing code in memory at this time). We were already using the ELF specification that defines them as our preferred executable format so to me it seems quite a reasonable way to get started.

I'd like to see an improved .library system that could obviate the need for .so, but seeing as nobody has done it, it seems a pragmatic choice for the time being. It's better than static linking at least.

So, everyone agrees that AmigaOS 4 have advantage here, over all the other AmigaOS alikes.

To answer the original poster - how is OS4? - Better than AmigaOS 3.

More:

16. Better preview functions for files in Workbench. Opening drawers and selecting Show->All files and View by->Name shows a resized icons on the left of the list for the different files. There is also the new Type, showing the type of file or drawer - Ascii, Project, Tool, Drawer, Zip, Lharc, Patch and many more.
17. Automatic refresh of drawers. If you download a file to RAM: or anywhere else, no need to go Window->Update to see the new file.
18. Screen Edges resistance - I find it very useful when placing windows near the edges of the screen. I still can put them outside, but it is harder, saves my lots of time.
19. Transpararency effects - for the people who prefer candy effects, they are there, highly customizable.
20. Icons rescaling - built in and supported by Workbench. No need to rely on third party software for this simple task.
21. Better shell - no need to remember exact names. Press the first letter or several letters of the file name you are looking for and then press Tab until you find it.
22. Execute Command from Workbench gives the possibility to search for the file with ASL requester - no more need to remember exact names, paths for the file you want to execute.
23. Detect settings of monitor automatically. No need to search the monitor manual and see what's the max supported modes. AmigaOS 4 will ask the monitor about this. You still can try higher resolutions with different refresh rates, at your own risk.
24. High resolution mouse pointer with dropshadow effect.
25. CDRW support built-in the OS. No more need to rely on third party software for backup to CDRW.
26. DiskImage handler. Click on CD image to mount it like a real CD. No more need to rely on third party software for this ordinary task.
27. Themes - don't like the ordinary AmigaOS 4 look? Click on the present themes or download some of the Internet. Don't like the new look? Double click on the Revert to Last Saved icon to restore your old theme.
28. Boot jingle - done by respected japanese musician.
29. URL handler.

Of course the list can go on and on. For the last nine and half years, since AmigOS 3.9 was released there are lots of improvements in AmigaOS. They are part of AmigaOS 4. It will take a bigger thread than this to list, comment and discuss all of them.

[drHirudo]

No, not really. It would appear that a significant portion of the posters believe MorphOS has significant advantages over AmigaOS4.

Frankly, since they're both very similar and MorphOS is more mature (and faster), I see no point in being argumentative.

Unfortunatelly, not much people who are interested in AmigaOS, care about MorphOS. If this was not the case, most of the discussion would be on MorphZone or similar forum and all the MOSers, who spam every AmigaOS 4 thread with their unwanted, unnecessary and irrelevant solution, would be gone long time ago.

AmigaOS is nice. Buy it if you have the funds for the hardware and the OS.

I do.

I'm sticking with MorphOS because of its obvious advantages and the fact that the investment needed in hardware and software is less.

Whatever suits you best. I prefer AmigaOS 4 and gave my reasons in previous posts. No need to repeat myself.

And, in the long road, any company devoting the time to creating PPC based software is unlikely not to support both OS'.

Amiga is in the hobby niche for more than a decade now. There are no companies.