Optimism and the Amiga Community

[jarrody2k]

Hey folks,

After reading the umpteenth flame thread, I've come to understand there are 2 distinct camps in the Amiga community... no, not AmigaOne and Pegasos... optimists and pessimists.

The pessimist label the optimists gullible and fanatical.  The optimists accuse the pessimists of defaming and discouraging the last few efforts to reinvigorate our uncertain platform.  The perennial feuding between the two camps are getting old.

Though, time seems against the optimists.  Coming into the second half of 2006 without a finished operating system or a working 'box' to go with it (some may argue this).  With nearly every fanatic jaded after a decade of bankruptcy and vapourware, positivity in the community is getting lower.

I still think there is room yet for positive thinking, creativity, new strategies and directions for 'Amiga'.

I guess I want to ask, do you think optimism helped the Amiga 'cause'?

Do you think there are still positive outcomes for the Amiga platform?  (In whatever way you may call positive)

Just food for thought.

Cheers,

Jarrod

[jarrody2k]

Hey Bill,

I have to agree with most of that.  Without resources you can't get far on any engineering effort.  And resources rarely come for free, unless you're open source.  Which I guess puts some fuel behind AROS.

bhoggett wrote:
Sure, maybe some guys with a soldering iron and a spare room to work in will produce some new hardware and maybe they won't but either way it won't reinvigorate the platform.

Though Kudos has to be given to one guy with a soldering iron... Minimig may end up being Amiga's best legacy!  Sure its a vanilla Amiga (or parts thereof).  But the dream of a handheld machine with loads of old classics ready to run doesn't seem too implausible?

What exactly 'Amiga' in this decade is really up to debate.  But its developments like this that are really exciting.  Sure it isn't finished yet, but its surely more feasible than a whole new desktop.

Cheers,

Jarrod

[jarrody2k]

IMO Amiga will stay hobbyist forever with a very tiny userbase.

Signed,
The Pessimist.

It is fair to say that current Amiga technologies don't lend themselves to widescale adoption.  Though minimig still has my vote for most potential.  Apart from a handheld gaming device, it may even be a cheap way to do basic kiosks or displays.

For instance, the trains here still use old Amigas for displays, and for lack of parts they want to upgrade.  Assuming the minimig would be quite cheap to produce (naive assumption: how much are a few fpgas?) they could slap their existing software onto a memory card and not have to upgrade.  I'm not sure of the exact capabilities of the minimig - whether it can do composite out or what inputs it has etc. - but this sounds feasible.

Surely there must a whole bunch of simple display devices that don't need bulky, high-maintenance PCs?

Surely there are still avenues for 'Amiga' to continue in different forms and contribute to our lives.

Cheers,

Jarrod

[jarrody2k]

tonyvdb wrote:
Thanks to people like Amigakit we still have support for Amiga and parts are still available. As long as users try to keep there Amiga alive it will continue.

Hey tony,

Here's a question then:  Considering user groups, websites (like this) and shops (like AmigaKit) are part of the Amiga community, do you feel that the promises and the pre-releases of new platforms for Amiga has helped to at least keep the community alive?

Cheers,

Jarrod

[jarrody2k]

bhoggett wrote:
Just to add that my earlier assessment does not include the minimig project. IMHO that belongs in the retro scene and as such has nothing to do with revitalising the Amiga as a platform, even if it may well find a successful niche for itself. This also means it is not a target for the criticisms I expressed earlier.

Does Amiga need to exist as a new desktop to live on?

AmigaOS was great for its time.  Perhaps to this day would still be considered very agile and still relevant to the modern desktop.  But as with BeOS we really don't have the resources to compete with Windows (or the more mature Linux solutions) in terms of being a viable and supported desktop alternative.

Minimig may not be an improvement on software, and mainly an efficiency improvement in terms of hardware, but it is a cheap way that Amiga can be deployed in all sorts of gadgets for the modern world.  I'm no electrical engineer, but such a product could have a low cost of manufacture, a tiny footprint and much less potential for component failure than a full-blown modern PC?

Cheap genlock/kiosk displays and a hand-held gaming device are two potent and viable (?) things that could result from the work of minimig.  People can think of more?

I guess my biting question is this:  What makes the 'retro' Minimig less of a continuance of Amiga than AmigaOS/Pegasos?  

Cheers,

Jarrod

[jarrody2k]

irishmike wrote:
First off, For a platform that should have died off completely several years ago, we the user, have kept it alive by being a community of folks who help each other.  This is a wonderful trait and it should remain the mark of an Amiga user.  This sentiment should remain fostered IMO.

So you would say that the benevolence of the Amiga community is the main reason Amiga has stuck around.  Do you think any of the 'newer' developments of AmigaOne and Pegasos have helped to keep things alive?

If these two developments did not exist, do you think the comradery between hobbyists would have been enough anyway?

Cheers,

Jarrod

[jarrody2k]

Hi Gojirax,

Gojirax wrote:
If the MiniMig is all the classic Amiga hardware coded into one chip, couldn't that chip be placed into an AmigaOne for applications that absolutely require custom chips?

A MiniMig emulation card would be awesome!  Perhaps even a hybrid with the CatWeasel?  That said, UAE/Amiga Forever as a software development is probably a more flexible (and at this stage more complete) emulation of the Amiga.

But I guess the potential for cycle exact hardware emulation is there!

Cheers,

Jarrod

[jarrody2k]

Hey Mike,

My questions weren't rhetorical by the way.  And I wasn't really boxing your opinion.  Was just posing some hypothetical questions.  I really am trying to understand whether Amiga One/Pegasos have really been positive for the Amiga community.

Sure they don't have the final results yet (and there certainly aren't enough resources to do this sort of thing quickly) but I do wonder if there anything else to take from the new developments?

Cheers,

Jarrod

[jarrody2k]

bhoggett wrote:

jarrody2k wrote:
Does Amiga need to exist as a new desktop to live on?

That depends on how you define "live on". Is UAE sufficient for the Amiga to live on? Probably. Is it enough for the Amiga to be revitalised? Obviously not.

True.  I guess the optimistic success would be when people previous unfamiliar with 'Amiga' technology, or previously not using it, begin to use the technology by their own desire or need.

Cheap genlock/kiosk displays and a hand-held gaming device are two potent and viable (?) things that could result from the work of minimig.  People can think of more?

Gaming devices already exist, though of course a minimig might be able to fill a niche for a handheld Amiga - but again this won't offer the market opportunities of other handhelds because no one is going to write new 'Classic' Amiga games.

Kiosk displays... any savings on hardware would be eaten up in software development costs. Migration costs to and from an Amiga based system would be huge too. It really doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Hehe, I don't think the 'kiosk market' is a desirable thing.  Given that most modern kiosks are digital displays, the MiniMig doesn't sound a reasonable choice.  Also a good point with the software effort, even if a large order of displays were needed (much like with the train stations) the software conversion could be a deal-breaker.  Though, the local stations here *are* based on old Amigas... not exactly a huge profit to be gained, but it is something.

An Amiga handheld gaming machine would be pretty cool.  There are certainly enough retro fans around to make a MiniMig product a very profitable thing.  And really, look at some of the most profitable games on the DS and PSP.. basically 2D games!

Sure it ain't the suave of Sony, but some well placed marketing could mean a number of ex-fans (and just pixel gaming fanboys) would snap them up.  ThinkGeek.com seems to be a place that would be ideal for selling a handheld MiniMig.  It might out-trump the handheld Sudoku (please!)

I guess my biting question is this:  What makes the 'retro' Minimig less of a continuance of Amiga than AmigaOS/Pegasos?

How long is a piece of string? The short answer is simple: it has virtually no potential for creating a market for new software. Then again, AmigaOS4 and MorphOS are in similar positions due to the decisions I mentioned earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure your question is specific enough to be answered. It can only be commented upon.

And that is all I want

So I guess from your point of view, the Amiga dies with its software development?

Cheers,

Jarrod

[jarrody2k]

itix wrote:

My questions weren't rhetorical by the way. And I wasn't really boxing your opinion. Was just posing some hypothetical questions. I really am trying to understand whether Amiga One/Pegasos have really been positive for the Amiga community.

Without Pegasos I would have lost interest on Amiga long ago. It was certainly positive to me but not necessarily positive to you...

I dont care what is "positive" to the Amiga. I only do care what is the best to me.

Hey itix,

Of course I can't extrapolate just you to the community at large, but certainly you are evidence that the further efforts of the Amiga hardware/OS options has maintained interest and enthusiasm of the user-base.

Jarrod.

[jarrody2k]

Manu wrote:
IMO competition is not the problem, Amiga is not up-to-date yet so competition is out of the question.
Focus should be on the basic stuff

-getting it out to users easily.
-make it interesting for old developers to try it out without having to invest a great deal of money
-not chaining it to special hardware that only makes more excuses to NOT inverst money in Amiga again.

Hope in AROS then?

Jarrod.

[jarrody2k]

bhoggett wrote:
AROS is slightly different in that it was not really part of the above scenario, but it too cannot balance the userbase/developer equation. At the moment AROS is only used by its developers, and because the developers don't acknowledge the needs of potential ordinary users, this is unlikely to ever change - in turn resulting in the fact that the developer base cannot increase to make more software available for it, which in turn would attract users. Catch 22.

I guess returning to our original theme: Would you say AROS increasing its user base is either optimistic or unrealistic (or somewhere inbetween)?

You say that currently they are on the wrong course, but given better direction is it still possible for AROS to claw back more users?

Jarrod.

[jarrody2k]

dammy wrote:

You keep saying AROS is nothing but developers, yet I am not a developer.  I also know of others who are clearly not developers either.   So clearly, we *users* of AROS do exist within the AROS community.

Hey Dammy,

A survey would be something ideal for the AROS website.  Some quantative results on the make-up of the AROS community would be useful.

In fact, being an open source project, it would be possible for a vote-driven wish-list to be established.  Sure free workers aren't going to always be told what to work on, and there may be some more lower-level stuff that needs to be made first... but it would give the AROS developers at large an idea of what is wanted by the users.

Perhaps then more people and perhaps commercial enterprise (which needs to happen) may start using the platform?

Jarrod.

[jarrody2k]

cybernoid wrote:
I'll buy AForever 2006 this month. Why? because it runs on my x86 pc and it's not expensive.
Amiga Os 4.0 for ppc??? why not intel? Why not the best n'cheap processor, the processor of the ppl?

It almost feels like AROS is the answer to everything.

Jarrod.

[jarrody2k]

justthatgood wrote:
Realism. It's that really bitter, hard pill to swallow.  It's the one that makes people wonder if Elvis is still alive and stuff. So many people want to believe, they shut out anything that will distract them from inevitable.

Optimistic thinking is certainly a road to disappointments.  Amiga has had its fair share, and then some.  But has optimism has any benefit for the community... if only to maintain interest?

Jarrod.