Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development

[Methuselas]

(snip)..... I care more about knowing whether there will be an affordable OS4 machine sometime in the near future than about an update to an OS that only runs on machines I can't afford.

+1


Part of the reason I stopped paying attention to their updates a long time ago.

Before people troll.....

I require a PC. Everything I do, requires one. None of the software applications I use run on an Amiga (and don't start with "alternative applications.") I work in the (sadly "dying") VFX industry and that means I use what they use.

The Amiga is a hobby for me. While I would like to have one as a personal web browsing machine (preferably a laptop), I'm not willing to spend 3gs for a machine, when I can build an 8 core 4ghz machine that's decked out for half that and does all I need it to do and more.

That's one thing I've never understood about the "Red Camp" and why the "Blue Camp" makes more headway with a user base: they listen to people.

*shakes head*

[Methuselas]

You did tell me there where things that AOS4.1 can't do that windows can do, which was another complaint of yours. Again, what are those things?

I was gonna leave this alone, but:


Maya, 3DStudio, Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere, After Effects, Nuke, Toxik, Mari, Painter, Animation Studio Pro, Mudbox, ZBrush, Reason and those are just a few examples of applications I use on a daily basis.

So, tell me, why would *I* spend a grand or more on a computer that for all intents and purposes will only do two things for me: web browsing and playing legacy games. Even in that the web browsing is still below what I could do on a PC and any legacy games I wished to run, I could do faster and cheaper on a PC with WinUAE, not to mention, I have a fully working A500 sitting in my closet collecting dust, 'cos I just don't have the TIME to play "legacy games."

It's the laws of supply and demand. Sure there are people that are willing to spend that money on an OS4 system and that's great for them, but for someone, like myself, whom is RELIANT on the system they use for work, how is getting a machine that does nothing I need it to do, for the price of a machine that WILL, justifiable? A fully working machine at around 300$ is justifiable to many of us, 'cos that's the price of a decent motherboard and at minimum, quad-core processor.  That doesn't meet the demand.

It's why so many of us are pissing and moaning about the "netbook" they were bragging about 2 years ago, but never saw the light of day. I love the Amiga OS and wish I could use it on a daily basis, but it doesn't meet my needs or demands. It's just that simple and tell me, is that really fair to ME, as an Amiga user?

BTW, you're Alien Attack game rocks. I've been playing the sh!t out of it, for a few weeks now. Even got my fiancee playing it. Good work! :laugh1:

-M

[Methuselas]

@thread

i go on vacation and look what happens. :lol:

anyhoo this thread has gotten seriously derailed.  would anyone object if i moved some of the off-topic posts to a new thread?  i'd like to keep everyone's thoughts around, but the argument over the merits of this OS vs that OS should be continued elsewhere. that is, if we want to rehash the same arguments over again for the 3,597th time.

-- eliyahu

Didn't you know, Eliyahu? As a Mod, you're expected to be chained to your desktop with a neural interface directly tied to Amiga.org at all times. Why do you think we've been trying to find a way to get Karlos to ban himself, for years?

[Methuselas]

I don't know half of those programs, but we do have gimp, I only use gimp at work any ways. Blender for 3D.
We could use inkScape on AOS4.x I prefer that over Illustrator

Once again, I run into the problem of software compatibility.

For example. If I'm doing contract work for a game company, I'm using 3DStudio. If I'm doing film or television work, it's typically Maya (or Lightwave, but I stopped using LW a while ago.)

Now, if I'm working on game models that are of the environment type, I *COULD* use Blender and import them into max for my client, but that's extra work on my part and I have applications on the PC side that allow me to cut UVs in seconds, rather than hours. Sure, I can paint my textures in GIMP, but I can instead use Mari, which allows me to paint seamlessly, on the fly, without having to paint, load into my 3D app, check for seams and paint again.

Now, if I am modeling and rigging a character model, I run into serious problems, as most game companies use 3DStudio's CAT plugin (Character Animation Toolkit.) Sure, I could model my character in Blender, then texture it in GIMP (running into the same problems I'd have with seam issues), but I'd still have to load it into 3DStudio to use CAT, 'cos there's no bone compatibility in Blender with CAT. That means, I'd do all my weight painting and binding in 3DStudio, anyway. That's counter-productive for my workload and pipeline, using two, separate machines to do the job one will do, faster and more efficiently.

Also, many of these applications I use, have linux ports, but they're still X86 based, not PPC, which would require a complete re-write of the application, most companies AREN'T willing to do for such a small userbase or run them through emulation, which would choke an already slow processor by comparison.

You see the conundrum? It's not that I DON'T want to use OS4. It's the fact that it's just not capable of what I NEED it to do, on a daily basis and for me, it's simply isn't justifiable to spend over a grand on a computer that I'm only going to turn on, very rarely, as a hobby. That being said, why am I being punished for not wanting to spend the money to purchase a machine I won't get much use out of, if at all?

Hyperion would be smart, if right now, they focused solely on porting OpenGL and getting it fixed, working and up-to-date with current standards, than anything else. When they got that done, they donate a machine or two to companies like ID, Steam, Blizzard, etc in the hopes they *MAY* (*MAY*, mind you) have a former Amiga coder willing to port a game, in his own time to the Amiga standard so Amigan's could download DRM copies of current games they wanted. (You'd be surprised how many digital artists in the game industries, like myself, that actually got their knuckles bloody on Amiga systems.) Sure, you're not going to get a CD/DVD copy with printed manuals and what not, but at least you'd be getting current games.

And thanks for your kind words on Alien Air Attack, I was not the only one involved in it, Krister made the great music and Kevin made most of the graphics, the good looking any way.

No worries. I wouldn't have said it, if I didn't mean it. I have it bookmarked now, so when I need a quick break. I just go play that for a few minutes to release my frustrations (though, as of late it seems to be making me more frustrated. Some of those levels are HARD! :rofl:)

[EDIT] - And for those griping about all the extra fluff on the SAM's, remember these boards were designed for KIOSKs first, not OS4. Hyperion ported OS4 to an already designed, tested and commercial board. All those "Extra" parts, from a KIOSK standpoint, are quite useable.

[Methuselas]

the software issue has been around since the late-90s. OS3, OS4, MOS, and AROS all suffer from a lack of software which is compatible with software used on mainstream platforms, like windows or linux. it's not just OS4, but OS4 gets the accusation most often because it's commercial.

Oh, I'm not blaming them for anything, I'm just stating an obvious point. AROS has a much better chance of app ports, 'cos it's x86 (though, with Olaf's AROS 68k, I'm tempted to hound Bernie about picking up Umilator again, since it bypasses all his legal and licensing issues. ) MorphOS has a better chance of a bigger user base, due to cheaper, readily available hardware, via Macs, but that kinda leaves OS4 out in the cold, which is why I don't understand why they don't donate machines to current software companies hoping they'll port their applications to OS4. A good example would be Corel. The Corel Suite is BEAUTIFUL. I love using Painter and the other apps that come with it. It's also less processor and ram intensive than Adobe products. That's a good starting point for getting commercial apps to Amiga. The Corel Suite is EXTREMELY cheap, compared to the Adobe Master Collection and I won't even mention how much I had to spend just to UPGRADE that from CS4 to 6. Yeah, sure they may not port it, but if these people are willing to lose 100k a year in "development" 6 or 7 grand for two working X1000's to an established software company, hoping they'll port their graphics suite to OS4 isn't anything. If I had Corel's suite, plus Open Office (which they claim is on the way, already), dropping a grand on a machine that I could use for storyboard, concept art, office work, browsing the web, along with minor things like watching TV shows, listening to mp3s while I work, etc, would be more feasible for me. Not to mention, Corel wouldn't require any hardware GL components. That's all software based.

in any case the good news is that hyperion are indeed working on a current OGL stack. they have been for some time, actually. the warp3D drivers A-EON commissioned are taking time away from that, but hey, money talks. lots of little things are happening behind the scenes to make the platform more attractive to developers, and OGL is just one of them. developer tools, documentation, etc., are also very important. and hardware that is performant enough to be able to even run some of the CPU-intensive applications now normal on PCs. oh, and it has to be at least somewhat affordable as well.

Yeah, that's the primary killer, right now, is Open GL. As soon as that becomes an Amiga standard, it's going to help people to start taking notice of it again, 'cos at least from a graphics stand point, it's up to modern standards. GL is also something that needs to be continually updated. Hell, send a box for free to NVidia. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't start writing OS4 drivers, since they're now doing Unix drivers for Macs and Linux boxes. They are a company, first and foremost. They care about numbers.

i don't imagine the amiga will 'return' per se, but i think it will become much better than it is today. i enjoy my NG systems because not only do they run workbench, not only do they run my classic amiga applications seamlessly, but they run them much faster. they run new, native software, some of which is terrific. and they let me do what i normally do on my PCs, but in the environment i prefer. if we could get 'em faster and cheaper, hey, that would be awesome. but when you're a hobbyist and have a passion for something, sometimes dollars aren't the most important thing.

-- eliyahu

Amiga could make a comeback, more along the lines of Linux, if they'd stop dropping the ball, all the time. They need to start LISTENING to their users, but mostly, their potential user BASE. I don't know how many people complained, back in the day, "Cheaper hardware!" or "X86 hardware!" The MorphOS people listened, out of necessity and ported to old Mac hardware. It's cheap and readily available, so their numbers swelled, in a short amount of time.

I really dislike Windows. Windows 7 is great, but XP was by far better, IMHO. My Win8 laptop is atrocious. I hate the interface, it's even more kludgy to me, than Win7, but it's what came with my lappy. I miss the Amiga OS. It was so good for what it was, in the 90s and I'm still spoiled about that. I would give anything to boot my PC into OS4 and double click a Maya icon to start doing work.

But, I'm a realist.

[Methuselas]

Well going x86 does not mean that software starts magically appearing. It still needs to be ported. Yes there could to some extend be some sort of wine implementation, but AFAIK aros does not have that, yet(?)

"They" are listening to their users, their users are using AOS4.x already. The users who wants an x86, are not really AOS4.x users, but they have the option of aros. Personally I beleiver more in AOS4.x than any of the other amiga like OS's. I would however really like to buy me one of those sweet aros boxes vesalia sold.

Once again, you're missing the point. What are they actually doing to promote companies into porting their software to OS4? I've seen people complaining about not having an updated SDK. If there's no current SDK, there's no porting of modern software. No commercial company has any incentive to buy a SAM or an X1000 to port their software to a user base of a few thousand. It's just not economically feasible. ESPECIALLY without a current SDK. Therefore, you *GIVE* these companies working machines and HOPE they decide to to it. You *PAY* companies to port software. Like I mentioned before, if these people are losing 100k a year in development dropping a few machines to a company in the hopes they'll port software isn't anything. However, taking 20 grand of that 100k and ASKING them to port say OpenOffice, is a BIG difference.

And while "they" are listening to their users, "they" are NOT listening to their user base, which is ANYONE that still has and uses a classic Amiga or peruses ANY OS4 related website, including Amiga.org. Hey, it's great they're working on SMP for the X1000 users, but that doesn't do anyone any good that doesn't have one. Sure, it's great they're updating OS4.1 Classic, but it's still not doing any good to anyone whom owns a SAM. Insofar, there are 3 types of Next-Gen OS4 machines: Classic PPC, SAM and X1000s, but yet they're all plagued with the same problem and that's they don't have any modern software. That alienates potential USERS from the user base, like myself, as we have no need for purchasing an OS4 machine. I don't need to spend a grand or more on a machine just to go, "Wow.... I'd forgotten how much I loved Workbench. Welp. Time to turn this off and turn on my PC, so I can actually do some work."

If they want to bring in more users, fact is, they need to start focusing on getting 3rd Party software development back to the scene and they're failing miserably in that aspect, with the exception of OpenGL, but that's only going to go so far, as most modern games require a coreDuo at least, to even run.

Following me now?

[Methuselas]

 Guy not far from me recently sold his 440 flex mobo and OS4 license for $200.  Still not as cheap as a Mac Mini (I got mine for free, essentially) and MOS, though.

The 440's are no longer produced and quite frankly for as underpowered as it is, 200$ should be the NEW, purchase price, not used.

I remember when the Efika first came out. I was REALLY tempted to buy one, 'cos it was 99$. I stopped short when people said they were having problems due to the limited ram, but that's a GOOD entry level price and you got a 30 minute time limit with MorphOS. You can even still by Efika's from Directron.

This is what completely baffles me about Hyperion and how over the years, I've gradually stopped being a "Red Camp" cheerleader. Please explain this logic to me, 'cos I really don't get it. I buy a SAM for 500$. Then, I have to get a hard drive, gfx card, case, power supply. I'll say I'm using an old dell keyboard and USB IR mouse I have ('cos I have spares.) I get all this for a total of 750$. After 2 or 3 weeks, I decide that OS4 isn't for me. Well, there's no 30 day warranty. I can't "return my product for a full refund", therefore I'm stuck with it. Even if I could return it, odds are, I'm stuck paying for shipping, which is just more money out of my pocket. Only I don't want it. So, my only option is to sell it on eBay or Amibay or via Craigslist. *BUT*, I have to sell it at a loss, 'cos regardless of the fact I only used it 2 or 3 weeks, it's still *USED* and there's always a risk when you buy used. This is Amigaland, remember?

Then, there's the subject of a warranty. While I am of the 100% opinion that Amigakit would honor this: "Hey. I bought [Name]'s SAM as he didn't want it anymore. I have his original receipt, all the boxes, manuals, etc., but it seems to not be working, yet it's still under the original warranty. Can I return it?"

However, my experiences with companies like SoftHut, VisionTek and Anti-Gravity made me skeptical with Amiga Businesses. In fact, the only reason I hold Amigakit in such high regard is a) I've seen how they package their shipments b) I've seen nothing but praise about them and c) when there IS a problem, ChrisF or someone else jumps on it as quickly as possible to fix it and typically doesn't rest until they do.

I'm NOT trolling, I'm making astute observations. I've wanted to buy an OS4 system for years, but short of the SAMs (which are still overpriced in my eyes, for what I get and I'm entitled to MY opinion), not a single piece of kit for OS4 has pushed me to go, "Oh WoW! I've just GOTTA have that!"

That is NOT fair to the end consumer and it's actually poor business logic. As I said before, there's absolutely ZERO incentive to purchase an OS4 machine, unless you just have the money to burn and are a zealot.

[Methuselas]

they are still produced, actually. acube just did another run a few months ago and they sold out quickly. if any were available (!) you could pick them up new, with warranty, for under $350. but... that doesn't include the OS license.

Yeah, but with the license, the 733mhz SAM440 mobo is still over 500$. I can build a low-end PC for that. Once again, it's all about demand. The demand is for CHEAPER hardware. I get the X1000 and it was a great system, but I truly feel that A-EON's money, not to mention the 100k a year for "development" would have been more cost-effective to reduce the price of the entry level boards. My gigabyte board with my 8 core 4 Ghz AM3+ 8350 cost less than the sole price of the SAM mobo. Since I can't demo OS4, I HAVE to buy the license with the board to get any use. Otherwise, it's just wasted silicon. I'm starting to wonder if we should start hounding Hyperion about making downloadable demo ISOs of OS4, but I'm pretty sure it will fall on deaf ears.

i can only say that i and others have had occasion to return hardware to either acube or amigakit, and the items were repaired or replaced. acube is/was selling SAM440ep-flex systems complete with graphics card, storage, DVD drive, etc., fully assembled for around $700USD. and with a two-year warranty. i believe they also allow the systems to be returned. but, yes, you would have to pay for return shipping.

That does make me feel better. I never got reimbursed for the 50$ coupon I purchased for the early bird scheme. I bought into Big Mac's "buy Amiga" back in 2000 and purchased a NOS A1200 from SoftHut, to get stuck with shoddy workbench disks and it took near two months, finally emailing Big Mac himself about it, to even get replacement copies sent. I was one of the fools that pre-ordered a Boxer back in 1997 from Anti-Gravity. That's not even the tip of my Amiga troubles in the past.

i don't think you are trolling. i think you are an example of several people i have talked with since being an active 'next-gen' amigan. lots of people would love to try an AOS4-based computer, but the cost of entry is too high. as for things being 'overpriced,' that's in the eye of the beholder. i was very worried my SAM would be too underpowered for much of anything, but in reality it was much more performant than i expected. the X1000 did say 'gotta have it' to me, but i ended up spending the money on something else after waiting so long to get an order link.

the good news is that the systems that are coming should be both more performant and cheaper than what we have now. but, as always in amiga-land, we're waiting. if you were in the tri-state area, i'd drive over with one of my machines so you could check it out. but that's not really something people should have to do. the VNC idea mentioned earlier seems something they should offer on request for interested parties.

if you do go for it, i think you'll be pleased with your purchase. it's just a shame there isn't a way for you to try before you buy. i don't suppose i could tempt you into joining us at amiwest this fall? there are tons of next-gen and classic amigas on display, with lots of nice people to chat with, including some of the principal movers and shakers these days. just something to keep in the back of your mind.

-- eliyahu

It's not that it's "overpriced." It's more price comparison. I'm trying to rationalize and justify the expenditure, especially in the current economy. Here's a simple analogy to sum up my issues.

If you could buy your favorite car maker's new automobile, but it was only available with bicycle pedals, meaning you had to do all the work, or would you buy a generic, new automobile that had an automatic transmission, 40mpg city, power everything, when they both cost the same price?

Unfortunately, I won't be to Amiwest any time soon, much to my dismay. Have a fiancee and a step-kid now, so my traveling isn't like what it used to be. :knuddel:

[Methuselas]

Utri and Iggy,

Obviously the term "analogy" is lost on the two of you. ;P