GeforceFX=surprisingly slow

[redrumloa]

Oh yeah you mean the the most recent P4s based MBs tromping DDR400 based systems? That sure happened, but IMO it was short lived. NForce2 with Double DDR will likely take the crown back soon.

[Hammer]

However, there appears to have been a direct correlation between nVidia's delays in their process shrink and their next flashship product and a lack of consumer and investor confidence.

They still have a month for the final release. The conclusions was a bit premature.  The 42.xx drivers were still in beta stage.

It be would nice IF you could show me a link, which has non-beta 42.xx drivers. I have 42.70 which are still in beta stage.

I'm not sure what your example with 3dfx is supposed to show... they had a great product in the Voodoo2. Then they had delays with their follow-up products and the products didn't perform as well as people were expecting.

Read the previous post (I'm referring to Ilwrath's post). 3DFX only covers 1 market segment i.e. video card market.

Ilwrath's claim was 1 market segment = success. This case was not true for 3DFX.
 
3DFX don't have alternative revenue sources outside the video card market.

Are you trying to imply that ATI is going to buy and gut nVidia? That's the only thing I see in a reference to 3dfx (RIP).

Failed to read the previous post will ultimately lead you to a wrong conclusions.

Remember when AMIGAS on board graphics kicked ALL p.c.  graphics cards ASSES ?  : (  Commodore was pretty diversified too !  I loved 3DFX my 5500 still running.(oops) Nvidia drivers always have issues ATI  getting better . Why can't we get  kick ass AMIGA graphics again ? . The AMIGA was cheaper pound for pound  over a p.c.




Commodore made more than p.c. clones ! Tyco is very deversified , Daewoo was very deversified, United tried to deversify  (mismanagement and corparate greed can kill ANY company!

[Hammer]

ATI and the Radeons have done well. The hardware is capable and the drivers have markedly improved. And they also have successfully been playing the PR game. Now it's time for nVidia to turn this disappointing first impression (after tons of delays) around into something positive.

Then try it on some AGP 8X motherboards.

From Australian PC USER Nov 2002 edition, page 30.

Five Radeon 9700 cards fail on the following motherboards;
1. MSI 648 Max (Sis648 chipset, Pentium 4)
2. Soltek SL-85ERV (VIA p4X400, Pentium 4)
3. ASUS P4S8X(SiS648, Pentium 4)
4. Gigabyte GA-7vAXP(VIA KT400, Athlon XP)
5. VIA P4PB400(VIA P4X400 Pentium 4)

Now the 5 Radeon 9700s cards.
1. ATI Radeon 9700 Pro
2. Gigabyte Maya II Radeon
3. Hercules 3D Prophet Radeon Series 9700 Pro
4. HIS Excalibur Radeon 9700 Pro
5. PowerColor Evil Commando Radeon 9700 Pro

In Australian PC USer Dec 2002 edition, Under the
title of "More Radeon 9700 Woes", page 36.
1. VIA P4PB400 (they manage to work with this mobo, but at a slower performance compared 4X mode).
2. "flakey" on Intel's new D845GEBV.

A typical ATI 9700 vendor response = "upgrade your bios". A mundane end users ("average punter") shouldn't be the ones be handling these issues (i.e. BIOS flashing and 'etc').

That should put things into perspective.

PS; Both SIS's Xabre and NV18  works fine with the above mentioned 8X AGP equiped motherboards.

[Hammer]

Commodore was pretty diversified too
 

Not quite diversified i.e. thier addons relies on the success of their main product (i.e. the Amiga PC).
I don’t think their X86 PC lines were competitive enough  

Refer to S3's example as a survivor in the X86 PC market unlike the 3DFX Inc.

I loved 3DFX my 5500 still running Nvidia drivers always have issues
 

I don’t think 3DFX V5500 was running on nv4(refer nv4_disp.inf file) family of drivers.

And I quote from "nv4_disp.inf" file.

NVidia       = "NVIDIA"
NVidia.Nv4 = "NVIDIA RIVA TNT"
NVidia.Nv5 = "NVIDIA RIVA TNT2/TNT2 Pro"
NVidia.Nv0A = "NVIDIA Aladdin TNT2"
NVidia.NvVanta = "NVIDIA Vanta/Vanta LT"
NVidia.NvUltra = "NVIDIA RIVA TNT2 Ultra"
NVidia.Nv5M64 = "NVIDIA RIVA TNT2 Model 64/Model 64 Pro"
NVidia.Nv10 = "NVIDIA GeForce 256"
NVidia.Nv10DDR = "NVIDIA GeForce DDR"
NVidia.Nv10GL = "NVIDIA Quadro"
NVidia.Nv11 = "NVIDIA GeForce2 MX/MX 400"
NVidia.Nv11DDR = "NVIDIA GeForce2 MX 100/200"
NVidia.Nv11GL = "NVIDIA Quadro2 MXR/EX"
NVidia.NvCrush11 = "NVIDIA GeForce2 Integrated GPU"
NVidia.Nv15 = "NVIDIA GeForce2 GTS/GeForce2 Pro"
NVidia.Nv15DDR = "NVIDIA GeForce2 Ti"
NVidia.Nv15BR = "NVIDIA GeForce2 Ultra"
NVidia.Nv15GL = "NVIDIA Quadro2 Pro"
NVidia.Nv17.1 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 460"
NVidia.Nv17.2 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440"
NVidia.Nv17.3 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 420"
NVidia.Nv17.4 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440-SE"
NVidia.Nv17GL.1 = "NVIDIA Quadro4 500/550 XGL"
NVidia.Nv17GL.2 = "NVIDIA Quadro4 NVS"
NVidia.Nv18.2 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440 with AGP8X"
NVidia.Nv18.3 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 440SE with AGP8X"
NVidia.Nv18.4 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 MX 420 with AGP8X"
NVidia.Nv18GL.1 = "NVIDIA Quadro4 580 XGL"
NVidia.Nv18GL.2 = "NVIDIA Quadro4 280 NVS"
NVidia.Nv18GL.3 = "NVIDIA Quadro4 380 XGL"
NVidia.Nv01F0 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 MX Integrated GPU"
NVidia.Nv20 = "NVIDIA GeForce3"
NVidia.Nv20.1 = "NVIDIA GeForce3 Ti 200"
NVidia.Nv20.2 = "NVIDIA GeForce3 Ti 500"
NVidia.Nv20DCC = "NVIDIA Quadro DCC"
NVidia.Nv25.1 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4600"
NVidia.Nv25.2 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4400"
NVidia.Nv25.3 = "NVIDIA NV25"
NVidia.Nv25.4 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4200"
NVidia.Nv25GL.1 = "NVIDIA Quadro4 900 XGL"
NVidia.Nv25GL.2 = "NVIDIA Quadro4 750 XGL"
NVidia.Nv25GL.4 = "NVIDIA Quadro4 700 XGL"
NVidia.Nv28.1 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4800"
NVidia.Nv28.2 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4200 with AGP8X"
NVidia.Nv28.3 = "NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4800 SE"
NVidia.Nv28GL.1 = "NVIDIA Quadro4 980 XGL"
NVidia.Nv28GL.2 = "NVIDIA Quadro4 780 XGL"
nvWin2kDualview = "NVIDIA Dualview"

Can you find 3DFX in there?

Now if only ATI can sort out their drivers.

More people living in the past. ATI's current driver sets are rock solid and great performers. Very much on par with NVIDIA.

[Hammer]

METAL wrote:

Now if only ATI can sort out their drivers.

More people living in the past. ATI's current driver sets are rock solid and great performers. Very much on par with NVIDIA.

I wish I could reply like this…

[redrumloa]

More people living in the past. ATI's current driver sets are rock solid and great performers. Very much on par with NVIDIA.

Display drivers maybe, All-In-Wonder multimedia bundled software is buggy as hell. I dare you to prove me wrong.

[Hammer]

For Geforce FX QnA with nVidia Corp refer to
http://forums.tweaktown.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7998

[Herewegoagain]

And with that damned leafblower roaring and your first PCI slot blocked,

 :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:

[Herewegoagain]

A typical ATI 9700 vendor response = "upgrade your bios". A mundane end users ("average punter") shouldn't be the ones be handling these issues (i.e. BIOS flashing and 'etc').

Yes, maybe typical, but there was a problem with the bios on a number of 8x capable boards that had to be resolved with a bios update before using 8x cards.  It is very valid, and should not be assumed that it is the Radeon 9700's fault.  Actually I didn't really attribute it as anyone's fault, just a glitch in moving to a new standard.

After seeing the Radeon 9700 Pro in action, I almost had to pick my jaw up off the floor.  Very impressive!
And no leaf blower necessary!

[Hammer]

Reminds me of the Matrox Parhelia. That card had more memory bandwidth than anything else out at the time, but the card was still not so hot (but is sure was expensive!!!)

Actually, GeF FX < R9700 in trems of real bandwidth.

GeF FX = 16Gb/s (128bit bus x 500Mhz mclk speed)
R9700 = 19Gb/s (256 bit bus x 310Mhz mclk speed)

Potential move for Nvidia (without another massive core change)
1. Move to 256 bit bus.

Potential move for ATI
(without another massive core change)
1. Move to higher clocked memory modules .
2. Move to higher clocked GPU.

[Hammer]

Herewegoagain wrote:

Yes, maybe typical, but there was a problem with the bios on a number of 8x capable boards that had to be resolved with a bios update before using 8x cards.

It is very valid, and should not be assumed that it is the Radeon 9700's fault.  Actually I didn't really attribute it as anyone's fault, just a glitch in moving to a new standard.

The cited motherboards was working with the other 8X AGP video cards(i.e. non-Radeon 9700 cards). Thus the issue was with ATI's end.

This is a repeat of

PS; Both SIS's Xabre and NV18 works fine with the above mentioned 8X AGP equiped motherboards.

Both SIS's Xabre and NV18  are 8X AGP capable video cards.

[Herewegoagain]

The cited motherboards was working with the other 8X AGP video cards(non-ATI cards). Thus the issue was with ATI's end.

Ok, but they were based on what?  The Geforce4 series?  If so, it's possible that potential problems were already worked around (just saying it's possible)...  But the question is, would these same boards without the bios update have had similiar problems using the GeforceFX??  It would be an interesting test to try.

[Hammer]

Ok, but they were based on what?

I see you don't have a clue about SIS's Xabre and NV18. Both of these products are 8X AGP capable.
They work with the motherboards cited in my post.

The Geforce4 series?

Did you forget SIS's Xabre GPU card?

But the question is, would these same boards without the bios update

IF they are available.

have had similiar problems using the GeforceFX?? It would be an interesting test to try.
 

That is not the issue since those cited motherboards worked with other 8X AGP capable cards.

We can get to your theoretical scenario when that event actually happens(i.e. actual product release).

PS; ATI may release fixes or issue a revised R9700 design, which may fix these problems.

Sigh... Why does the average punter has to bear the beta testing phase?

ATI's drivers for gaming are OK... their drivers for application 3D are pathetic...and their drivers for their multimedia cards are pathetic...I wont buy one until they start to really make improvements.... I did just buy a wildcat 4110 for 150 off ebay though ahh the joys of a market economy.