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Offline Mr_Capehill

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2004, 08:28:06 PM »
@Kenny:

Out of interest, how have they implemented memory protection and altivec support in MorphOS?
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2004, 11:33:37 PM »
Quote

Mr_Capehill wrote:
@Kenny:

Out of interest, how have they implemented memory protection and altivec support in MorphOS?


That's quite an intresting question actually. I don't really know much about MOS kernel. Has anybody got any information about this?
int p; // A
 

Offline Acill

Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2004, 11:40:12 PM »
Well as far as I know the Pegasos hardware is far better then the A1 hardware. Lets put it this way. Freescale semiconductors just bought a lot of systems from Genesi, and I mean a LOT. When the hardware was being shown to them they also had a Teron (A1 is the same as this) and a G5 dual system. The Pegasos beat them all out. Its fantastic hardware and the OS is awsome!
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Offline KennyR

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2004, 11:42:35 PM »
@Mr_Capehill

Altivec has been implemented in MOS1.5 betas for months. In fact the first news of it we got was when MOS core devs started cracking 10 million RC5-72 keys a day instead of 3 million...

Memory protection is not possible in MorphOS ABox, or any shared memory address OS, including AmigaOS, and AmigaOS4. Despite the continuous hype that has followed AOS for years about this, it remains as impossible as ever.

(I'm aware that OS4 claims to have some memory protection but I doubt very, very much if this is worth the overhead it will cause. AmigaOS just wasn't designed for memory protection, period. )
 

Offline Framiga

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2004, 11:55:01 PM »
Quote
by Acill on 2004/6/8 0:40:12

Well as far as I know the Pegasos hardware is far better then the A1 hardware

any explosion. . . fire around there yet? :roll:

troll mode end ;-)

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Offline Acill

Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2004, 12:09:35 AM »
The system is quite good and well made. Its the best hardware I have seen in a long time.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2004, 12:13:06 AM »
Quote

Acill wrote:

When the hardware was being shown to them they also had a Teron (A1 is the same as this) and a G5 dual system. The Pegasos beat them all out.


So, your'e saying a single CPU G3 based machine beat a dual CPU G5 based one. At what, exactly?
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Offline Dan

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2004, 12:15:05 AM »
 :flame:  :flame:  :flame:  :flame:  :flame:  :flame:  :insane:  :insane:  :insane:  :insane:
AROS RULEZ!!!! ONLY AROS WILL run on ALL MOTHERBOARDS and SuPPort all KinDs of excetutable and BiNaRies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 :flame:  :flame:  :flame:  :flame:  :crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:  :laughing:  :laughing:  :laughing:  :laughing:  :laughing:  :insane:  :insane:

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Offline Holley

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2004, 12:22:53 AM »
I'd be interested to know the details of the differences, and what real affect they have.  I can understand a good system based around a slow CPU can outsrip a bad system with a fast one, mostly due to bottlenecks in caching/memory access - though their tests may have included a cost factor (?).
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Offline Dan

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2004, 12:34:13 AM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Quote

Acill wrote:

When the hardware was being shown to them they also had a Teron (A1 is the same as this) and a G5 dual system. The Pegasos beat them all out.


So, your'e saying a single CPU G3 based machine beat a dual CPU G5 based one. At what, exactly?

Could have been a G4 :-)
Price and running Linux is my guess.
Seems like PPC-Linux on Pegasos is better supported than on A1.
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Offline samo79

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2004, 01:57:59 AM »
AmigaOS 4.0 on Pegasos ?

Just a word: impossible :-D
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2004, 04:39:35 AM »
Quote
What about Future games releases and compatibility with a PC? You see by nature I'm a Pc user but like a lot of other people I'm getting fed up with the sluggishness of the os even with a high power machine...

If you want compatibility, you definately don't want either OS4 or MorphOS.  You'll basicly have to start from scratch and search high and low for software.  The money you'll eventually pump into it won't be worth it, either.  Just about anything works with Windows2000 these days, and it's smaller than XP.  I won't give up my Win2K system for anything, though I like to experiment with other OSes like Linux and BeOS using an older PC.

I think it's a myth that an efficient OS can run better on lower spec hardware.  Even BeOS runs like a slug on my Celeron 400 with the nVidia TNT2 Ultra card.  The OS really matters for memory management.  The development libraries for Windows aren't too bad for efficiency -- it's the junk running in the background that sucks, and Win2K lacks much of the trash that comes with XP.  Besides, memory is more expensive for the PPC.  It matters little to me that Windows idles on 100+MB or memory, when 512MB is easy to afford, depending on what speed you want.

My Win2K system boots in 20 seconds flat with $400 worth of motherboard, CPU, and memory, plus a good ATA100 hard drive which will run you about $80-$100.  Prebuilt PCs are a different issue entirely, but then, you'll have to build an AmigaOne or Pegasos machine yourself, or ask a dealer to make one for you.

Quote
I'm no fan of nVidia - they make overhyped, hot, noisy cards that are strictly only for heavy gamers. I wouldn't get one.

Boy, did they go downhill after the GeForce4.  My dad can't get a stable system with his unless he uses drivers a year old, and his 4200 is still too damn hot.  My brother-in-law (and programming guru) got the "budget" FX without the fan, and he eventually had to mount an oscillating office fan blowing into his open case to keep the machine stable.  I think he put his old S3 Virge card back in, and you have to be pretty desperate to do that.  ;-)

Quote
That's the trouble with PeeCee's these days. They got great softwares but you need to compensate your hardware to meet its max specs... And on(x10)...

Yeah, right.  As if you're lacking in choices!  If one product has specs too high for you, there are about a million others.

Market demand determines specs, so quit blaming the hardware companies and Microsoft.

Quote
(I'm aware that OS4 claims to have some memory protection but I doubt very, very much if this is worth the overhead it will cause. AmigaOS just wasn't designed for memory protection, period. )

Refresh my memory.  I thought Hyperion is going with a sandbox approach to memory protection in OS4.  Considering how old most apps are, and new apps will be natively compiled, won't the overhead be a non-issue?

 

Offline bhoggett

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2004, 08:52:35 AM »
Quote

KennyR wrote:
nVidia support even on Linux is poor, and doesn't support 3D. Only the binary drivers nVidia release themselves for Windows (and which are notoriously buggy) have 3D support.

Rubbish.

nVidia themselves release Linux drivers, and actively update them. These have full 3D support, as you'd expect, but because they're not open source they're not included with most freely available distributions. Most boxed retail distros will include them, at least for x86. This has been the case for years now.

In fact, it is ATI drivers that are a problem on Linux, because they have to be reverse engineered, and any information ATI release is reputed to be inaccurate and incomplete.

ATI cards are currently technically superior in many ways, but unless you have a platform officially and directly supported by ATI - meaning they release the drivers themselves - you're no better off than with an nVidia card. Both ATI and nVidia cards run seriously hot and need a fairly effective cooling system, particularly the newest models.

If you run Windows, your choice should be made by reading all the reviews and the technical specifications of each card. The fastest is not always the most advanced, etc.

If you run anything but Windows, your choice is limited by who does the drivers for your OS. The technical abilities and speed of the card are secondary.
 
Quote
Not true. A1 is basically only sold for OS4.

Again wrong. The A1 was built to satisfy Eyetech's need for a custom system their industrial customers could not purchase from anywhere else, therefore allowing for high profit margins per unit to be maintained. They previously used old Amiga systems for this, but understandably were going to have problems as the supply slowly dwindled.

The OS4 tie-in is so that those systems can be sold to the consumer market too, with Eyetech looking for the same exclusive angle they have with their industrial niche.

Quote
Pegasos is cheaper, meant for a much bigger market, and OS's for it don't need workarounds for problems with the Articia chip. You just port it and go.

Balls. Pegasos ports still need workarounds, even if not for the Articia chip. Otherwise all those ports that have been almost done for over a year would be available for download.

Quote
A1 on the other hand is badly priced for these markets and has problems just running Linux. No-one wants to adapt their kernel to run on an expensive PPC board when they can do it for half the price with no workarounds on a Peg.

Both Peg and A1 are overpriced and overhyped. One rates as distinctly mediocre hardware, while the other borders on being downright poor. In both cases the operating systems are raw and unfinished.

To those guys considering which system to buy, I'd have this advice: come back in five years. By then one or both systems will have matured into something worth buying if you're that way inclined, or they will have died and been buried for good. Buying one at the moment is like throwing your life saving down a wishing well in the hope that it will make you win the big lottery prize.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline Cymric

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2004, 08:57:04 AM »
Quote
Waccoon wrote:
Quote
What about Future games releases and compatibility with a PC? You see by nature I'm a Pc user but like a lot of other people I'm getting fed up with the sluggishness of the os even with a high power machine...

I think it's a myth that an efficient OS can run better on lower spec hardware.  Even BeOS runs like a slug on my Celeron 400 with the nVidia TNT2 Ultra card.  The OS really matters for memory management.  The development libraries for Windows aren't too bad for efficiency -- it's the junk running in the background that sucks, and Win2K lacks much of the trash that comes with XP.  Besides, memory is more expensive for the PPC.  It matters little to me that Windows idles on 100+MB or memory, when 512MB is easy to afford, depending on what speed you want.

I've read on various sites that one of the reasons a machine might be sluggish is a sh*tload of spyware and other nasty things infecting your computer. I have had the pleasure of experiencing this myself---even on a fully patched Win2K-system... (That is one good reason for sure to switch OS, but that's a different subject.) It might be worthwhile to check out what is secretly running behind your back.

Quote
My Win2K system boots in 20 seconds flat with $400 worth of motherboard, CPU, and memory, plus a good ATA100 hard drive which will run you about $80-$100.  Prebuilt PCs are a different issue entirely, but then, you'll have to build an AmigaOne or Pegasos machine yourself, or ask a dealer to make one for you.

A few days ago I took a peek at Alienware's site. Personally I think they sell snake oil (who on Earth needs a 64-bit CPU in a system, and why would you need personalised benchmarking specs for your machine...?) but you have to admit: the case looks pretty cool.
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Offline Mr_Capehill

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2004, 10:06:48 AM »
@KennyR:

Yes I know that Altivec support has been in MOS for some time now, but I was getting the impression from your e-mail that it was somehow better (how?).

When the AmigaOS 4.0 hits the store, we can compare the emulation speed.

Memory protection. I think it's a good start to have 0 address and stack protected (at least coders should appreciate it a lot :). I think the plan is to move TOWARDS better protection when people actually begin to code for AmigaOS 4, when old, possibly badly-written software loses its point.
 

Offline Mr_Capehill

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Re: OS4 on the pegasos
« Reply #44 from previous page: June 08, 2004, 10:11:01 AM »
@Bill H:

Maybe so, but I think that many Pegasos and A1 owners have been quite happy with their computers. If somebody wonders which she should buy perhaps a little waiting is good, since AmigaOS 4.0 was just pre-released (to developers).