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Author Topic: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)  (Read 13137 times)

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Offline falemagn

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #74 from previous page: April 03, 2004, 12:51:12 AM »
Quote

Yes it does.
The app with the "fuzzypointer" is more probably detected & killed before it messes up the memory of other apps/OS.


Sorry, but it's not as simple as you make it sound. For one, you can't just kill the culprit task, if you do, you risk to really damage the rest of the system, as that task might be holding information that another task has got a pointer to, for instance, or it might be holding a semaphore (and no, you can't safely just release the semaphore, as that might leave the data it was protecting in an incoherent state), or whatever else can come to your mind.

 

Offline ksk

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2004, 03:25:01 AM »
@piru
>How exactly?

I'm not going to go over it YET again.

>The memory used by other apps/OS is *allocated*, thus the hit will not be detected. Apps/OS will crash.

It does not change anything!

The propability of OS detecting misbehaving application becomes better when it detects access to unused memory (perhaps before it hits some used memory).

(uninitialized pointer is not the only case, accidental use of freed memory seem to happen often in OO code)

(and AOS is not the only OS using that kind of partial MP methode, I know a few million of users elsewhere for that kind of memory protection system (also using some other tricks))

>is far for perfect,

I'm not saying it is perfect. I never will.
It's just better than not having any protection at all.

> and it's debatable if it's worth the effort anyway.

:-) I kind of expected that kind of answer. I rather have it than not.
 

Offline ksk

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2004, 03:39:31 AM »
@blubble

1. Oh my. Read again.
2. "dissapointment that it is compatible" nope.
4. well, the roadmap looked better, the rest is history.

There's no use in going around with this matter. MOS has looked as good option, then bad, then good, then politics ...


@falemagn

Then do not kill it. But surely you rather know something/anything about the memory corruption proceeding in your system than just crash and loose all data.
 

Offline falemagn

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2004, 04:35:43 AM »
Quote

Then do not kill it.


Not killing it is no real solution either, because the alternative is just freezing it, which again may cause all kind of troubles, although the chances troubles may happen are lower than in the case the task were killed.

Quote

But surely you rather know something/anything about the memory corruption proceeding in your system than just crash and loose all data.


Sure, but then, it's not really "memory protection", it's just another situation in which the classical "suspend or reboot" requester pops up.
 

Offline Bodie_CI5

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2004, 05:01:21 AM »
Quote

magnetic wrote:
 Also, it is common knowledge that the Pegasos2 is a much better technology than the Amiga 1 board.

magnetic


Oh dear, what was being said here:

http://www.amiga.org/gallery/photo.php?lid=1714&cid=37

 :-P
Recovering WoW addict.

And, I\'ve relapsed, LOL.

Hmm, might be canceling again. LOL
 

Offline Argo

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2004, 07:52:42 AM »
Watch it guys. Don't go down that road. There will be a flag on that play.
Not to mention that this has all gone way off topic.
 

Offline Warface

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2004, 01:08:28 PM »
Quote
by ksk on 2004/4/2 18:33:51

@Warface

>On the contrary, it seems from the rate of development it will be quite some time before OS4 can catch up -

So you say again.

Show me the list of things there is in the MOS(for advanced users)1.4 that is not available in the AOS4.0 internal beta?

Or in 1.5.

MOS does have advantage in maturity, on many parts, though.


Well, look at it from my perspective for a moment. I had a Radeon display when the Radeon driver development started for AOS4, read all the stuff about how troublesome it is, read the first news when it gave picture, that there are still issues with some Radeons in case of the AOS4 beta.

I read now that they have a working IDE DMA driver, when I got that for ages.

I will read with the same anticipation in a JIT boosted IBrowse when their JIT will be finally implemented.

Watching from a fully 24 bit desktop as 24 bit icon system will finally reach OS4. That there will be OpenGL support.

And I don't know since when MorphOS and it's Graphic system is 100% PPC native...

See my problem? Not that I believe that OS4 won't be ready one nice day, I'm pretty convinced that it will be feature complete. The matter of fact, I believed in 2002 november, that it's closer to being that than I believe now, because it was the general impression. People were told to be patient, wait just a little longer, only some smaller bits are remained to finished, and the rest is just polishing.

It turns out, even very basic tasks are still to be finished. Which I use every day since I don't know when...

Quote

UPDATE: Now I spotted your mention about those MOS things.
"Mainly I think about the 24 bit internal system from ground up, and their 3D system, of which ATM only the Warp3D wrapper is publicly available."

That is not much.


That is much. And will take considerable time to reimplement all internal 8 bit or planar stuff. Just look at how much time is consumed by seemingly trivial tasks. And there is not only one, I bet there is a considerable TODO list lying ahead.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2004, 02:20:43 PM »
@ksk
Quote

Quote
The memory used by other apps/OS is *allocated*, thus the hit will not be detected. Apps/OS will crash.

It does not change anything!

Oh yes it does. The apps/OS will crash. Prove me wrong instead of yelling "It does not change anything!".

Quote
The propability of OS detecting misbehaving application becomes better when it detects access to unused memory (perhaps before it hits some used memory).

This is true, however very rare. Only very large hits will be detected, and usually it is already too late then (freelist or other allocated memory is trashed).

MMU pagesize is 4096 bytes, minimum. This is the granularity the memory protection can be set. As long as MMU page has any used memory, it cannot be made write protected (or invalid, if using new memory system that separates free memory and freelist).

What is the typical free memory hit? 99% of the time it's buffer overflow. The application will overwrite memory past the allocated area. Unless if the end of the allocated memory chunk is exactly at the MMU page border (aligned by 4096), the hit will go 100% unnoticed by MMU, and free list or other allocated memory will be trashed.

Other typical case is memory allocated by the application (or someone else) that is then freed but your app still accesses it. Catching these will ONLY work if the whole MMU page worth of memory is made unallocated. If any of the memory within the MMU page is still in use, the MMU page cannot be marked write protected (or invalid). Most of the time the hit will go 100% unnoticed again, and it's too late. You've already trashed other allocated memory or freelist.

Quote
(uninitialized pointer is not the only case, accidental use of freed memory seem to happen often in OO code)

Catching these will only work if the freed block is very large and the accessed are hits MMU page that is all free. Quite unusual, since typically the access happens to beginning or end of the block, which are unlikely to be all free memory.

Quote
(and AOS is not the only OS using that kind of partial MP methode, I know a few million of users elsewhere for that kind of memory protection system (also using some other tricks))

Really? I haven't heard of such systems. Care to list some?

Quote
It's just better than not having any protection at all.

If the protection has a performance penalty, it doesn't really give protection, *and* it gives programmers false sense of security... I am not sure if it's good.

Just take a look at some of the sloppy coding practices used in "protected" environments.. No checking of allocated resources, they rather crash and let the system clean up the resources than catching the condition themselves. I am not claiming such programming practices will automatically be adopted because of this, but is it more likely? IMHO yes.

I rather would see true memory protection than such limited hack that has little to nothing to do with Memory Protection.

What I would like to see most, however, is adoption of proper and good programming practices. But that is not going to happen.
 

Offline smace

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2004, 03:11:55 PM »

Quote:
---------------------------
If your main motivation in using your computer is to belong to a certain 'camp', you're using the computer for the entirely wrong reason.
---------------------------

Just some additional thoughts on this statement:

For wide parts of the (amiga-)computerized parts of my generation (I popped out in '77), I'm sure the demoscene was the main motivation for using the Amiga. For many, and while the Amiga was a top notch mix of electronics, wrapped in plastic ("she's dead; wrapped in plastic"), games was a good motivation too.
Now, understand this: you play a game, and you use a computer, but you belong to a demoscene.
You live within it. For a lot of us who have been called nerds in our youth, it was the feeling of belonging to this big everpresent aura of the demoscene, that made us use the computer. That's why, you had a "scene-life", and always refered to real life as "real life". I say had, because today it's more like an abandoned ghost town, the amigascene.

Anyway, the main motivation I have for turning on my Amiga nowadays, is for tuning in with this community I feel that I belong to. I've always gone along with the Amiga, for that reason, to belong. Je suis à ma place, I think in french. I suppose that's why people still spend time with their C64's too, and Atari's etc. It's just another hobby with its hobbyist community, and if that's ones motivation for using a specific computer, I think it's an entirely legit reason.
 

Offline Acill

Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2004, 06:22:48 PM »
Lets remember to keep things on topic. This thread isdrifting away from what the original poster wanted info on. He was looking for advice on moving to the Pegasos, and why he should over other systems. Lots ofgood info, but lets not scare him away from what he was looking for.
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Offline restore2003

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #84 on: April 03, 2004, 06:46:25 PM »
Quote
Now, understand this: you play a game, and you use a computer, but you belong to a demoscene.


You were in the scene? What group were you in?

I was a musician for a norwegian group called "Deadline" back in 89/90

When the scene was at its biggest :-)
If you need music for games, demos or are in a need of a studio mastering engineer, just contact me :-)
Check out my project homepages: www.galaxee.no   www.restore.no
 

Offline smace

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2004, 08:53:11 PM »
Quote

restore2003 wrote:

I was a musician for a norwegian group called "Deadline" back in 89/90


Cool! Check your pmail  :hat:
 

Offline ksk

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2004, 11:48:40 PM »
@Piru

That MMU page limitation reduces that free memory protection usability. Thank for pointing that.

(and now that you mentioned it, that can be circumvented in our embedded situation, but most likely the same does not work in desktop...)

>>...I know a few million of users elsewhere for that kind of memory protection system (also using some other tricks))

>Really? I haven't heard of such systems. Care to list some?

I can not. But if you use a cell phone, preferably 3G. You most likely are using it.

>Just take a look at some of the sloppy coding practices used in "protected" environments..

Right.
(lucky that MOS with Qbox & MP is not yet usable) ;-) ;-)

>I rather would see true memory protection than such limited hack that has little to nothing to do with Memory Protection.

Ofcourse. Especially if the OS still remains efficient/flexible also for multimedia/realtime needs.


@Warface
>And will take considerable time to reimplement all internal 8 bit or planar stuff.

Most likely yes. I think Hyperion might have pretty good competence for that (higher than the original OS building competence).

Hopefully that is partly done when getting rid of all legacy dependant parts. And IIRC in some parts AOS was already capable of handling 32 bits per pixel.

((yet again, this is a place where co-operation would have been very productive, without a few too big egos ...))
 

Offline Wolfe

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #87 on: April 05, 2004, 09:14:56 AM »
Here I thought this thread was about switching to Windows.  And I had to put in my $0.02 worth plus an extra quarter or two.  But its not.   :-o

Myself: I own neither.  I have helped in building a Pegasos and a AmigaOne.  Since OS4 is not available for the AmigaOne, a fair comparison is not possible.  I do however like Morph OS for what it is.

But I refuse to buy either until OS4 is available for testing, not to mention the release of the A1Lite.   :-D  -   :angel:

Until Then: Amiga OS 3.1 & 3.9, BeOS, Mac OS 9, Mandrake, OS X, Red Hat and posibly SkyOS in the near future will have to do.  Not to forget AROS in Linux.  Man, I can't wait for AROS to mature into prime time.    :banana:
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Offline blobrana

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #88 on: April 06, 2004, 01:40:59 AM »
Hum,
I`m just downloading a security patch for winAmp
(there`s a big hole there!) better to patch it up quick!

And yesterday i had to scan my whole system for the w32, wormy, bangle a-f variants etc  viri (just a precaution)

And the day before that i had to patch up `blackice firewall`
and before that `zone-alarm` and before that....(etc)





[And one day i know they`ll get me....]
 :-)

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Thinking to change to the dark side (blue)
« Reply #89 on: April 06, 2004, 03:48:19 AM »
Quote
I`m just downloading a security patch for winAmp

Call me old fashioned, but I fail to see how a mediaplayer could have security flaws.