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AuthorTopic: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators  (Read 15021 times)

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Offline clebin

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2018, 12:56:33 PM »
Quote from: ALB42;836978
:huh:
As a developer, I really feel unwell to see something like this...  so there is no room for legit complains? no Bug reports, no feedback at  all...

Every "real" developer is very happy about error/bug  reports, especially when the user searched for a simple reproduction way  and it is  reproducible. At least me, but maybe I'm from yesterday, today you are only allowed to cheer!

Just my 2 cent.


You're absolutely right! Just for the avoidance of doubt: my last post was specifically aimed at one user and you'd have to go back through months and years of his posts to see why I might get frustrated and post that. Maybe I should've kept my trap shut, but I don't like to see the obvious delight that some people take in rubbishing other people's work. I'd never want to discourage serious, level-minded and productive developers like you from chipping in with construtive criticism. HTH.
 

Offline PPC

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2018, 06:20:56 PM »
Quote from: ALB42;836978
:huh:
As a developer, I really feel unwell to see something like this...  so there is no room for legit complains? no Bug reports, no feedback at  all...

Every "real" developer is very happy about error/bug  reports, especially when the user searched for a simple reproduction way  and it is  reproducible. At least me, but maybe I'm from yesterday, today you are only allowed to cheer!

Just my 2 cent.


We where very happy with your bug report on MUI Mapparium, and made corrections.
So please test software make us aware of bugs, it helps refining the FPU.
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Offline nyteschayde

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2018, 07:52:46 PM »
Quote from: grond;836979
Come on, you should know the difference between trolls that only bash the product without ever giving constructive feedback (other than "for running BSD an MMU is required!") and people giving useful bug reports (such as you did). The latter are always welcome and appreciated on forums.


I don't think anybody has any issues with someone with a real bug report. If you have a bug to report you're likely an owner and user of the Vamps. The problem, if you read 7 out of 10 posts on anything Vampire related, are the trolls and haters that show up just to complain.
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Offline nyteschayde

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2018, 07:55:39 PM »
Quote from: ALB42;836978
:huh:
As a developer, I really feel unwell to see something like this...  so there is no room for legit complains? no Bug reports, no feedback at  all...

Every "real" developer is very happy about error/bug  reports, especially when the user searched for a simple reproduction way  and it is  reproducible. At least me, but maybe I'm from yesterday, today you are only allowed to cheer!

Just my 2 cent.


Updated to my post to reflect your concerns, not that what I wrote was official but it should be known that anybody with a legit bug or concern should report it so the product can be made to be better.
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Offline ALB42

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2018, 07:34:15 AM »
Quote
So please test software make us aware of bugs, it helps refining the FPU.
Currently I stopped to test stuff on Vampire because of two reasons

  • It's too annoying to work with it, I have such models need some soldering done and well... I'm a software developer, do I have to say more :lol:
  • The Round() bug you found and solved already, as I heard, but I'm not sure if you solved the other "Bug/precise Issue" as well. At least I got no information about. I would only run into the same issue again and again until a new Version is released.
-- Troll mode on
I always thought C is such an efficient language in length of code, but this switch statement looks much longer and complicated than the Pascal variant of it :laugh1:
Code: [Select]
case yourComplaint of
  I_FOUND_A_BUG:              pleaseReportToDevsAndThanksForTheSupport();
  BS_ABOUT_EMULATION:         goLearnAboutWhatAFPGAIs();
  IT_DOESNT_SUPPORT_MY_SETUP: waitForOneThatDoesAndBeThankfulInTheMeanTime();
  I_CANT_FIND_ONE_TO_BUY:     learnPatienceOrPayInGoldOnEbay();
  else
    if youDontHaveAnythingNiceToSay then
      keepYourThoughtsAndOpinionsToYourself()
    else
      bePatientAndReadTheForums();
end;
-- Troll mode off
 

Offline Karlos

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2018, 09:20:08 AM »
What are the actual precision limits of the FPU implementation?

If the issue is that it isn't the full 80 bit but is at least correct for IEEE 754 64-bit, then it's certainly no worse than the emulation used in OS4/MorphOS.

If the issue is that its less than 64 bits, then sure, that will cause problems for some software. How much of a problem will depend on the task at hand. It also depends on which bits are sacrificed. Most likely the low order bits of the mantissa, of course.

If the issue is that it's less precise than 32-bits, then the statement that its just a "quake enabler" may be fair criticism. Although it will also enable many other applications too.

My understanding is that its "not quite 64 bit IEEE" due to some current limitations imposed by gate counts.
int p; // A
 

Offline ALB42

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2018, 11:12:20 AM »
@karlos:

Difficult to answer that (for me) I didn't tested it in detail.

Disclaimer: can be completely wrong what I write here, just some very
basic tests on the surface where done! Don't slaughter me if it is completely BS.

https://blog.alb42.de/2018/03/03/vampire-2-7-fpu-part-2/
just this test as you see the
b := b * 1.0000000001;

Needs 11 significant decimals precision

Single has 6-9 significant decimals
Double had 15-17 significant decimals

Vampire (at the current released Version 2.7) does not see this
1 at the 11. position.
That means it has less than 11 significant decimals.
I remember I tried with 9 and it somehow worked (with large
error but that is to be expected at the edge of precision)

So it looks like it uses like single 23 bits for the significant
but it's not Single/32 bit because the numbers can still go up to 10^308
That means the exponent is still 11 bits long as you would expect
for a Double/64 bit.
So it's something new ;-) the VampireDouble with 23 bit significant 11 bit exponent (and a sign bit)
35 bit (but of course in memory the length of 64 bit)

I hope that make some sense.

It could be (and this is what I hope :-P) that this was a bug and solved with the Round() Bug they already solved.
Therefore I'm very careful to claim that all as a fact and continue to investigate when the new fixed version is out.

But the exact information only Gunnar can give you I guess.

Quote
My understanding is that its "not quite 64 bit IEEE" due to some current limitations imposed by gate counts.        
Sure, that's the reason, but my preferred solution would be to make the Single/32 bit calculations in the FPGA and double/extended trap like before to FEmu. or something like this. But maybe they tried but didn't worked as expected.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 11:16:59 AM by ALB42 »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2018, 12:28:00 PM »
Quote from: ALB42;837024
-- Troll mode on
  BS_ABOUT_EMULATION:         goLearnAboutWhatAFPGAIs();
[/CODE]-- Troll mode off

I know what an FPGA is & I know what emulation is.

Apollo is not a software emulator written for a general purpose computer, but that isn't all that "emulation" is.

You can emulate a cpu with 74ls chips if you really wanted. http://www.baltissen.org/newhtm/ttl6502.htm
 

Offline grond

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2018, 12:49:34 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;837032
You can emulate a cpu with 74ls chips if you really wanted.

No, the correct technical term for this would be "implement".
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2018, 03:06:47 PM »
Quote from: grond;837033
No, the correct technical term for this would be "implement".

Only if you don't know what emulate means.

emulate: "reproduce the function or action of"

How you emulate something, whether it's an fpga, software, hardware, pieces of string etc is an implementation detail.

It seems emulation is a pejorative term, so nobody wants anything to do with it & comes up with reasons why their emulation is not emulation. It's all just PR & spin.

Emulation in hardware has been around for decades. Sound cards featured sound blaster emulation, hercules graphics cards had MDA emulation.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 03:13:14 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline Chucky

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2018, 03:31:10 PM »
As people defaults Emulation as something to do with software, I call it "Simulation" when done in FPGA.  this seems somewhat accepted.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2018, 03:41:50 PM »
Quote from: Chucky;837038
As people defaults Emulation as something to do with software,

Only because that is what is being told to them.

Having to use synonyms because of someones ill advised PR strategy, is a pain.

It's emulation, it's different from emulation in software. Just focus on the benefits, rather than turning it into another ist of prejudice and discrimination.

i.e. Lower latency because of dedicating gates to logic, rather than the multiplexed gates in a cpu that are decided by the cpu.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 03:45:30 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline Motormouth

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2018, 03:46:40 PM »
I am personally very glad to have the FPU at all.  It makes installing software significantly easier, which was the only real issue I had with my vampire with the way I use it.   Some installers assume you have an FPU if you install 020+ code,

So this FPU is great for my uses.

I also like that it has the full set of 68882 instructions.


I will have to dust off some of my old Maple scripts and see how well the functions work with the Vampire.  My guess is that a calculating the carrier concentration of electrons in the n-type Silicon depletion region of a transistor will not be greatly effected ie 4-5 x 10 ^18 char with an error is 10^8 order of magnitude will not have any differences.

In Physics we use to joke the answer to a problem was 0, 1, infinity, or infinitely infinite (ie an infinite set of infinities)
 

Offline kolla

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2018, 03:51:45 PM »
That discussion is moot, as the apollo core FPU implemented in gold core 2.7 for V2 neither simulate nor emulate anything, it clearly is its own little weirdo beast.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 03:55:28 PM by kolla »
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Offline grond

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2018, 04:22:37 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;837037
Only if you don't know what emulate means.


You clearly have no clue. A CPU built from discrete gates IS a CPU and thus not an emulation. Hence, it is _implemented_ using gates, not emulated.