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Author Topic: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update  (Read 91026 times)

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guest11527

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #299 from previous page: April 21, 2018, 01:36:47 AM »
Quote from: nyteschayde;838641
I feel like there needs to be better source control on the Amiga. I think there is a SVN client for accelerated, memory capable, Amigas.

I personally do not use the Amiga for development. It's a vamos-based build chain, which means that I can depend on all the revision control systems from Linux.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #300 on: April 21, 2018, 10:27:11 AM »
Not ironic at all :)
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Offline olsen

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #301 on: April 21, 2018, 12:20:44 PM »
Quote from: nyteschayde;838641
Me too! I really wish more Amiga development worked this way. Even better a github link would be nice. Too bad getting github source to an Amiga is hard enough without git support, let alone porting git.

I feel like there needs to be better source control on the Amiga. I think there is a SVN client for accelerated, memory capable, Amigas.


Ported by yours truly, this is still version 1.1.4, and it badly needs an update to handle TLS 1.2, now that nobody really deploys SSL/TLS 1.0/TLS 1.1 any more. With TLS 1.2 support you could access GitHub again. This is on my ever-growing TODO list...
 

Offline olsen

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #302 on: April 21, 2018, 12:24:02 PM »
Quote from: Orphan264;838643
Perhaps you mean Subversion (http://aminet.net/package/dev/misc/subversion-1.1.4)
I have used it a little, but only against local repositories.


We have been using that SVN client for AmigaOS development since around 2008, when the CVS repository of AmigaOS4 was eventually migrated (which was quite the adventure -- this is when I found out how many corrupted RCS files were part of the Amiga operating system source code tree, owing to ancient bugs in the rcs tools).
 

Offline olsen

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #303 on: April 21, 2018, 12:36:39 PM »
Quote from: kolla;838649
Not ironic at all :)


Careful, the irony in this has so many layers, it might actually be recursive by now, and nobody noticed.

Back in the 1990'ies when I was working on the AmigaOS 3.1 build, the foundation for the development work were RCS files which eventually came together in a single CVS repository through a tedious and thoroughly grinding process of massaging the files until the CVS server stopped choking on them. Building the operating system on my Amiga 3000UX took hours, but it worked. Turnaround times for fixing build/runtime errors were epically bad (but then the build times for intuition.library under NetBSD were even worse).

Things changed by the time Amithlon came around, which cut the build time to under an hour. When I upgraded my old laptop, I discovered that I could run WinUAE on it, and with the new JIT the whole setup was faster and more convenient than the Linux setup I was struggling with. While I still had an A4000T at the office, the combination laptop+WinUAE made me much more productive.

There haven't been that many changes since then. The build tools are still all 68k (no cross-compilation is involved), but now they either run within WinUAE or through the vamos emulation layer. The major limitations of building everything natively on 68k hardware were available memory and I/O bandwidth. Emulation and virtualization remove these boundaries. You still have to test the results on actual hardware, though (some things you cannot conveniently debug on emulated hardware; actual hardware will always manage to kick your butt and make you feel generally miserable).

The compounded irony is in that we still use Amiga-native tools to build the Amiga operating system, only that the tools are no longer running natively on Amiga hardware.
 

Offline LoadWB

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #304 on: April 21, 2018, 12:52:50 PM »
Quote from: olsen;838654
actual hardware will always manage to kick your butt and make you feel generally miserable


Most true words I have read in a while.
 

guest11527

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #305 on: April 21, 2018, 03:52:26 PM »
Quote from: olsen;838654
Careful, the irony in this has so many layers, it might actually be recursive by now, and nobody noticed.

...

The compounded irony is in that we still use Amiga-native tools to build the Amiga operating system, only that the tools are no longer running natively on Amiga hardware.

Indeed. So yes, it is still SAS/C building the tools, and GNUmake ported to AmigaOs, and the H68X assembler, and SLink, all as it used to be. So, I haven't attempted to port anything to gcc and cross-compile. Just that my editor is now emacs, and the console is called mrxvt. Even the shell is the native Amiga Shell, just running in an mrxvt-console, and not in a CON: window.

Works nicely. Well. Most of the time. "ReadArgs()" is one of the functions that really persist proper emulation. I just fixed "the last bug"(tm) yesterday night. You can always get my branch of "qualified to build AmigaOs" here:

https://github.com/thorfdbg/amitools

It is certainly a very cut-down version of the AmigaOs API, and I had to add a couple of custom tools to make it work right, for example adding a new compiler front-end for Lattice C (which, unfortunately, some minor components still depend upon until I finally get my hand on them).
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #306 on: April 21, 2018, 07:14:35 PM »
Wasn't AmigaOS built on other systems most of its lifespan anyways? :)
What I find ironic here is that ThoR uses Linux, of all things, to get work done.
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guest11527

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #307 on: April 21, 2018, 08:34:23 PM »
Quote from: kolla;838660
Wasn't AmigaOS built on other systems most of its lifespan anyways? :)
What I find ironic here is that ThoR uses Linux, of all things, to get work done.

Why? Just because I believe that a closed source AmigaOs works better? Look, there is open source, there is closed source... unlike what you might believe, I am not a "true follower" of any religion, and I'm not in particular a fan of GPL. However, depending on the needs, I pick the right development model that fits best. For AmigaOs, Open Source is not the right model. For others, it is. If you check, there is open source on my github as well, so no worries.

I'm only pragmatic, but I have a strong opposition against people who are trying to sell me that a particular model is "evil" and I should stick to their definition of "free-ness". Thanks, I rather pick this myself.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #308 on: April 21, 2018, 09:44:34 PM »
Why? Because you typically bring out Linux as something you really dislike, and despite claiming that AmigaOS doesn't "fit" open source models, your entire build environment relies on open source. No open source, no AmigaOS development. That is irony.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #309 on: April 21, 2018, 09:59:05 PM »
Wonder if OS 3.1.4 will use AROS code for a certain component, like OS 3.9 does :)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 10:07:05 PM by kolla »
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---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

guest11527

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #310 on: April 21, 2018, 10:30:22 PM »
Quote from: kolla;838666
Wonder if OS 3.1.4 will use AROS code for a certain component, like OS 3.9 does :)
Oh, another conspiracy theory then? Which component of 3.9 did use AROS components then?

Concerning Linux: I believe I told you very well what I dislike about it, namely that the developers - insead of stabilizing the platform - continue to re-invent new solutions for old problems that have long been solved. Linux makes programmers happy - not users. I do not want this to happen with AmigaOs.

X11 vs. Wayland. Cups vs. lpr. Alsa vs. jack. initv vs. systemd. A lot of wasted resources.
 

Offline klx300r

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #311 on: April 21, 2018, 10:35:31 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;838669
...

Concerning Linux: I believe I told you very well what I dislike about it, namely that the developers - insead of stabilizing the platform - continue to re-invent new solutions for old problems that have long been solved. Linux makes programmers happy - not users. I do not want this to happen with AmigaOs.

X11 vs. Wayland. Cups vs. lpr. Alsa vs. jack. initv vs. systemd. A lot of wasted resources.

+1 :hammer:
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Offline olsen

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #312 on: April 22, 2018, 07:03:36 AM »
Quote from: kolla;838660
Wasn't AmigaOS built on other systems most of its lifespan anyways? :)

I think it's closer to 55:45 given the whole time span between 1983-1994 (assuming that the operating system took shape around 1983 and not 1984).

At Commodore they used Sun 2 and Sun 3 machines for development, but I don't remember what was in use at Hi Toro/Amiga: there was a reason why the Sun workstations were preferred, and it may have had something to do with how expensive they were.

Native Amiga development tools continued to improve through 1987/1988, and work on what became Kickstart 2.0 did use the native Lattice 'C' compiler, several versions of which were used during the development of the subsequent 2.04, 2.1, 3.0 and 3.1 operating system versions. The CDTV project most prominently used the Aztec 'C' compiler.

It could have been Commodore's penny pinching which drove the developers to native tools, but the improved performance of Amiga hardware, along with the better quality of the native development tools did yield better quality software. A whole battery of tools for QA work was created specifically for Kickstart/Workbench 2.0 which the original operating system developers could not use (due to lack of MMUs, for example).

One downside of this move from cross-development to native development was that the ability to build the entire operating system on a single machine was lost. The local builds (still using makefiles) drifted apart, and by 1994 you could expect that no two operating system components were built similarly. In fact, you probably had to wrangle three different compilers, two different assemblers and start the respective build manually. While it was still used in production work (1989-1994) that "build process" must have produced and lead to the resolution of integration problems on a major scale :(

Quote
What I find ironic here is that ThoR uses Linux, of all things, to get work done.
Actually, one of the reasons why this approach was picked was the idea of having a build server which at the end of the day would crank out a complete AmigaOS build, or stop and complain if this didn't work out ("the daily build & smoke test"). We couldn't conveniently do this with an Amiga, but with the vamos setup it became possible.

I'm assuming you've done your lot software development work. One of the most important aspects of software development productivity is to be able to build and rebuild the product as quickly as possible. If you have to wait hours just to find an integration error, chances are that the whole development process will make you utterly miserable.

Eating your own dogfood and everything which building the Amiga operating system on an Amiga, and testing it in this context brings with it, there's no single tool which can do everything well. I'm accepting that a build done on any POSIX system through vamos is now part of the process of building the 68k Amiga operating system. Irony be damned ;)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 07:05:44 AM by olsen »
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #313 on: April 22, 2018, 10:32:11 AM »
Quote from: olsen;838673
but I don't remember what was in use at Hi Toro/Amiga:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAGE_Computer_Technology
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline kamelito

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #314 on: April 22, 2018, 10:38:59 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833366
There will be no vampire specific Kickstart. There will be neither a Cyberstorm specific Kickstart, nor a GVP specific Kickstart. If vampire wants to support customized device drivers, there are plenty methods how to add such devices to the system. Autoconfig is one option. Adding the devices to the F-space ROM is another.

For now it is an accelerator maybe, so what you're saying is right, but SAGA/Pamela add new customs registers like the original Amiga in the $DFFxxx space...so it seems logical that it could be part of the OS instead of having a solution like P96 or CGX no?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 10:42:29 AM by kamelito »