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AuthorTopic: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)  (Read 2733 times)

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Offline gertsy

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Re: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2017, 07:09:57 AM »
Na. Not interested, I did HP UX, Solaris and Redhat for 10 years at work. But I'm a classic user. And use Win10 for everything else. :) Works flawlessly with all the software I brought from Win7-8.1-10.
 

Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Would you purchase AmigaOS if it supported ARM or x86?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2017, 10:34:52 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;820466
It means what its says.

Countless man hours wasted on Linux for no good reason than "its free".  Except its not.  People's time isn't free.  And lots of users have wasted countless hours to fix simple things in Linux.  A CD ROM driver update for example broke PCLOS- "Really? Works here fine, YOU must be the problem"..boots up Windows to get online to find a fix, 1 week later.  NO THANKS- life's too short.

Then there is Linux's "amateurishness" that leads to user frustration: I'm looking at my Mint 17.3 log in screen:  It says stefceplinuxStefceplinux.  Right under it there is a dialog box: It says in medium fonts"Login" underneath that a blinking cursor and in small fonts "Please enter your username".  Now I won't tell you as a user what is wrong with that, I'll let you work it out.  Let me say Linux's User-friendliness goes out the window from the very first login screen, in its "most user friendly" distro too.  Its a joke.

It was "gonna go mainstream" after Vista.  No, wait.  That was gonna happen "after Win 8".  No wait...now that 10 is stealing everyone's identity and sending to M$, its sure go mainstream any day now....

Wtf are you on about?  There is no such thing as a 'cd rom driver update'.  That's all built into the kernel.  Not to mention if a patch that the distribution put into their kernel broke your system, then that is entirely the fault of that particular distribution, NOT Linux.  As nicholas said, "why is that the fault of Linux?"

Same for the login screen, use proper Gnome, not that bastardized thing that Mint uses.  Even if you don't like Gnome-Shell, fallback mode is pretty damned close to old gnome 2.0 and is officially supported instead of some 'omg, changes, lets fork!' side project supported by Mint.

Sounds to me like you just need to use a GOOD distribution.  Preferably one that doesn't try to do all the hand-holding (I've learned that while they have decent defaults, much like Windows, if you try to do anything cool with them, they break.)

Slackware was mentioned, though oddly through all my years of using Linux, I haven't really tried Slackware, but I have always ended up going back to Debian.  I've tried all the derivatives of it, and they just end up sucking because they take from Debian, but then break the packaging compatibility so lose all of the great talent that goes into a proper Debian package.

It really sounds like all of your complaints are distribution specific.  Also Arch is fantastic for learning, and you can keep the same install for years!
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Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2017, 10:41:40 AM »
Quote from: gertsy;820602
Na. Not interested, I did HP UX, Solaris and Redhat for 10 years at work. But I'm a classic user. And use Win10 for everything else. :) Works flawlessly with all the software I brought from Win7-8.1-10.

Ha, reminds me of when I got Windows 7.... for the life of me I could not get Interstate '76 (from GoG) working on it, but it works wonderfully under wine.

Only time I ever boot into Windows 10 these days is to play the games that haven't been released for Linux.  And even then the %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! thing gets in my way.  Granted I won't blame Windows for Kasperky trying to block VorpX (a program to try to route GPU calls to a VR headset), but yet games locking up on it is a pretty common experience.  Oddly enough Windows 10 itself rarely locks up, but the software on it certainly likes to freeze.

Granted, my favorite is the 'oh, well you normally schedule updates at this time, and you randomly can't sleep so you're working on something, but I'm going to reboot even if you're actively using your computer.  Tough %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!!' situation.  Though I think they may have fixed that in one of the updates, it did that to me even during the day when it was first released.
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Offline stefcep2

Re: Would you purchase AmigaOS if it supported ARM or x86?
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2017, 12:07:16 PM »
Quote from: slaapliedje;820606
Wtf are you on about?  There is no such thing as a 'cd rom driver update'.  That's all built into the kernel.  Not to mention if a patch that the distribution put into their kernel broke your system, then that is entirely the fault of that particular distribution, NOT Linux.  As nicholas said, "why is that the fault of Linux?"

Same for the login screen, use proper Gnome, not that bastardized thing that Mint uses.  Even if you don't like Gnome-Shell, fallback mode is pretty damned close to old gnome 2.0 and is officially supported instead of some 'omg, changes, lets fork!' side project supported by Mint.

Sounds to me like you just need to use a GOOD distribution.  Preferably one that doesn't try to do all the hand-holding (I've learned that while they have decent defaults, much like Windows, if you try to do anything cool with them, they break.)

Slackware was mentioned, though oddly through all my years of using Linux, I haven't really tried Slackware, but I have always ended up going back to Debian.  I've tried all the derivatives of it, and they just end up sucking because they take from Debian, but then break the packaging compatibility so lose all of the great talent that goes into a proper Debian package.

It really sounds like all of your complaints are distribution specific.  Also Arch is fantastic for learning, and you can keep the same install for years!


1.  Stop blaming the user.  Distro's without a simple login screen are not the users fault.  Its not because "its not like Windows"- its because its a brain dead login screen.  And this is on THE most popular distro...

2.  An issue with the cd-rom driver support did in fact break PCLOS. Yes was fixed eventually by some friggin' around with the kernel.

But the kernel is not an operating system  "Wow this kernel is so much better than the Windows kernel, or the Macos kernel"- Said no user ever.  The kernel is nothing without the software that runs on top of it.  Thats what makes the computer useful.

The operating system is how Linux gets judged by most end users.  A well designed OS is intuitive to use without needing to read a tome about it.  Never needed to read an Amiga manual, a Windows manual, or Macos manual or even a Beos manual-but I need to to use Linux?  And that's my fault?  

3.  Just need a good distro, you say?  But not Mint, the most popular?  Not any derivatives of Debian- that would mean no Ubuntu, second most popular.  Arch you say- a bit of digging tells me it will dump me into a cli by default, and then I have to manually:
    create disk partitions
    establish MRB or EFI
    setup network with ( or without) DHCP, including wired or wireless network
    optimize gcc for the specific CPU
    config(and even compile) the main Linux kernel
    config, compile, and install kernel modules
    do some environmental essential configuration
    setup X server and GUI
    …
 And then all the other essentials. Luckily there is a beginners guide- 26 pages LONG.

Why would I want to waste time reading all that when Windows will do it in under 20  minutes?

4.  Yes my complaints are distro-specific.  ALL have their own specific issues.  I've been there, done that.  Life's too short to waste on fixing RST's on Linux.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2017, 02:08:55 AM »
Seeing as Linux is apparently the cause of all your issues with the GNU OS use this instead.  No Linux to be found in it whatsoever.

https://d-i.debian.org/daily-images/kfreebsd-amd64/daily/netboot-10/mini.iso

Or this. No Linux contained either.

https://www.osdyson.org/projects/dyson/wiki

Let us know how you get on without that terrible Linux causing all your problems.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 02:10:16 AM by nicholas »
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Offline nicholas

Re: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2017, 02:17:14 AM »
Quote from: wawrzon;820370
even though im pretty new to linux native, i have mostly ran it in vm as compiler environment tilllately, i cant agree with it. i was pretty surprised how useful and simple it may be even for creative tasks like multitrack audio recording or graphics. i consider it even more handy than windows i must admit. the problem is a choice of not overloaded distribution. for me it has been lubuntu so far.


My elderly parents used a first generation Intel iMac for ten years and when that finally packed up my uncle gave them his old core2duo laptop running Windows 7 and they could not use it without constantly ringing me for help.

I got sick of the calls so travelled the 100 mile round trip to their house and installed Lubuntu on it for them with Docky and a Snow Leopard icon theme to make it more visually familiar.

That was last summer and they've not called me for support once.
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Offline gertsy

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Re: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2017, 06:53:51 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;820679
My elderly parents used a first generation Intel iMac for ten years and when that finally packed up my uncle gave them his old core2duo laptop running Windows 7 and they could not use it without constantly ringing me for help.

I got sick of the calls so travelled the 100 mile round trip to their house and installed Lubuntu on it for them with Docky and a Snow Leopard icon theme to make it more visually familiar.

That was last summer and they've not called me for support once.

I guess ur saying that's because they can use it fully without need of telephony support and that you don't go over once a week to fix issues and problems so they don't have a need to call. Yeah?
You know you could have just enabled RDS.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 06:56:12 AM by gertsy »
 

Offline EugeneNine

Re: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2017, 12:27:17 PM »
My parents run windows.  Every month I had to clean some kind of malware.  I finally got them to use firefox instead of IE so it goes about 6 months between malware infections now and thats mainly because my mother will still use bing/msn for something and one of the ads was smart enough to write their crap for more than one browser.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2017, 01:40:12 PM »
So the choices were:

Remote Desktop and fix the pile of sh1te every single bloody day (usually more than once) or install Lubuntu and never ever have to fix it at all.

You would choose the first choice?

I'm not a masochist, nor am I a sadist wishing to inflict that level of pain upon pensioners.
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Offline gertsy

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Re: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2017, 01:47:39 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;820744
So the choices were:

Remote Desktop and fix the pile of sh1te every single bloody day (usually more than once) or install Lubuntu and never ever have to fix it at all.

You would choose the first choice?

I'm not a masochist, nor am I a sadist wishing to inflict that level of pain upon pensioners.

Nup probably not.  If I was in your situation, in your shoes, I likely would have done exactly what you did do.  If you are the one who generally ends up sorting their sh1te out. And that's an OS you are comfortable, familiar and happy with, why not.
The thread probably got way off topic, which is normal for OS flavour threads on AORG.

There are many things I would do if it was me; not in your situation.  There are things you need and should do on all OSes when setting them up for normal "user" access. Living on an 8yo OS and Browser is asking for trouble generally. Logging in on as root/admin another thing that should never be done, but something that is generally done and accepted on Windows against install and support advice, which gets most people into trouble most of the time.  

Anyway each to their own and viva la difference.
 

Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Would you purchase AmigaOS if it supported ARM or x86?
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2017, 04:21:48 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;820617
1.  Stop blaming the user.  Distro's without a simple login screen are not the users fault.  Its not because "its not like Windows"- its because its a brain dead login screen.  And this is on THE most popular distro...

2.  An issue with the cd-rom driver support did in fact break PCLOS. Yes was fixed eventually by some friggin' around with the kernel.

But the kernel is not an operating system  "Wow this kernel is so much better than the Windows kernel, or the Macos kernel"- Said no user ever.  The kernel is nothing without the software that runs on top of it.  Thats what makes the computer useful.

The operating system is how Linux gets judged by most end users.  A well designed OS is intuitive to use without needing to read a tome about it.  Never needed to read an Amiga manual, a Windows manual, or Macos manual or even a Beos manual-but I need to to use Linux?  And that's my fault?  

3.  Just need a good distro, you say?  But not Mint, the most popular?  Not any derivatives of Debian- that would mean no Ubuntu, second most popular.  Arch you say- a bit of digging tells me it will dump me into a cli by default, and then I have to manually:
    create disk partitions
    establish MRB or EFI
    setup network with ( or without) DHCP, including wired or wireless network
    optimize gcc for the specific CPU
    config(and even compile) the main Linux kernel
    config, compile, and install kernel modules
    do some environmental essential configuration
    setup X server and GUI
    …
 And then all the other essentials. Luckily there is a beginners guide- 26 pages LONG.

Why would I want to waste time reading all that when Windows will do it in under 20  minutes?

4.  Yes my complaints are distro-specific.  ALL have their own specific issues.  I've been there, done that.  Life's too short to waste on fixing RST's on Linux.

1. No where did I blame the user, I specifically was saying the distro.  The only blame on the user in this case is choosing a distribution that is a fork of a fork.

2. While the point still remains, distributions maintain their own patches in the kernel.  very few people just take the source off of kernel.org and compile it on their own.  I  would occasionally back in the day, but haven't had to do that for 15+ years...

3. Just use Debian.  Not a fork / derivative.  Install Debian Jessie, you can choose whatever major desktop at install time, and you can enable backports if you need newer video drivers.

Arch is very much a "build your own system", but once it is built, runs forever.  Only reason mine finally died was because my hard drive decided to start clicking in the middle of the night, and I had that install updated from about 6 years of use.  

I can get a full Arch install with desktop in 20-30 min, depending on download speeds, and it will stay running forever.  Windows... hell I am already considering re-installing mine because some random software doesn't uninstall itself correctly.

4. All software has bugs.  Just depends if said bugs are the kind where you want to rip the sisk out and stomp on it or not.  Windows has done terrible things to me in the past and present to make me not want to use it for anything serious.  Windows 10 will spontaneously teboot because of forced updates.  They took away the "wait another hour" option.
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Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Would you purchase AmigaOS if it supported ARM or x86?
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2017, 04:37:39 AM »
I was just thinking...

It's kind of funny that it was mentioned that Linux Mint is the most popular distribution.

Chronology went something like this;
Debian=OMG hard to install, old gnome in stable release! >
Ubuntu=Goal, to bring out a set release every 6 months of Debian Unstable, and keep Gnome current for desktop usage... (server edition using same Debian installer, because Debian reallyi wasn't hard to install, just for a long time was curses based, so had bad rep.  Strangely enough, Ubuntu server install still uses the curses based installer, rather than the gtk based one)
Then Gnome-shell was progressing and "OMG, we don't like this.  We'll create our own clone and call it Unity!"  But of course that's pretty much %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!tier than Gnome-shell, there is a reason no other distro adopted it.
Then came Mint... which then forked Gnome-shell to make Mate or Cinnamon (for some reason I can never remember which is the gtk2 based straight fork of Gnome2 or which one is basically GTK3+some gnome-shell stuff, but with gnome2's style of interface)  

So Debian > Ubuntu > Mint.  Problem is that Mint (with the exception of their poorly maintained Debian Edition) is based off of Ubuntu, and Ubuntu has, much like PCLOS it seems, makes terrible kernel patches that causes issues.  

I'd installed Ubuntu as a 'friendlier' Linux on a friends laptop and it literally ate the extended partitions that it was installed on.  I thought for sure that the drive was dying (it was kicking up a ton of I/O errors, when I mounted it with a  liveCD).  I ended up formatting the corrupted partitions and it was 100% fine after that.  Installed Debian and he's perfectly happy with it.
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Offline nicholas

Re: Would you purchase AmigaOS if it supported ARM or x86?
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2017, 02:42:23 PM »
Quote from: slaapliedje;820820
I was just thinking...

It's kind of funny that it was mentioned that Linux Mint is the most popular distribution.

Chronology went something like this;
Debian=OMG hard to install, old gnome in stable release! >
Ubuntu=Goal, to bring out a set release every 6 months of Debian Unstable, and keep Gnome current for desktop usage... (server edition using same Debian installer, because Debian reallyi wasn't hard to install, just for a long time was curses based, so had bad rep.  Strangely enough, Ubuntu server install still uses the curses based installer, rather than the gtk based one)
Then Gnome-shell was progressing and "OMG, we don't like this.  We'll create our own clone and call it Unity!"  But of course that's pretty much %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!tier than Gnome-shell, there is a reason no other distro adopted it.
Then came Mint... which then forked Gnome-shell to make Mate or Cinnamon (for some reason I can never remember which is the gtk2 based straight fork of Gnome2 or which one is basically GTK3+some gnome-shell stuff, but with gnome2's style of interface)  

So Debian > Ubuntu > Mint.  Problem is that Mint (with the exception of their poorly maintained Debian Edition) is based off of Ubuntu, and Ubuntu has, much like PCLOS it seems, makes terrible kernel patches that causes issues.  

I'd installed Ubuntu as a 'friendlier' Linux on a friends laptop and it literally ate the extended partitions that it was installed on.  I thought for sure that the drive was dying (it was kicking up a ton of I/O errors, when I mounted it with a  liveCD).  I ended up formatting the corrupted partitions and it was 100% fine after that.  Installed Debian and he's perfectly happy with it.


You really should try the Liquorix kernel on any Debian derivative that is used as a desktop/workstation.

 https://liquorix.net/
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Offline slaapliedje

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Re: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2017, 04:10:29 PM »
Hmm, I wonder how many of those tweaks are in the SteamOS kernel.

Not sure how much they change over the stock Debian one.  I had thought liquorix as a distribution had died long ago.
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Offline nicholas

Re: Views on Linux (from AmigaOS x86 thread)
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2017, 04:38:30 PM »
Quote from: slaapliedje;820926
Hmm, I wonder how many of those tweaks are in the SteamOS kernel.

Not sure how much they change over the stock Debian one.  I had thought liquorix as a distribution had died long ago.

Liquorix has never been a distribution.  It's a debian repo with builds of the Zen Kernel for easy updates.

Are you thinking of Lycoris Linux from the early naughties? They are unrelated projects.

This kernel build is much more noticeably responsive than the SteamOS kernel on the same hardware. It's kinda BeOS/Amiga style responsiveness.
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini