Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?

[guest11527]

I don't know what Cloanto's arrangement is and whether Amiga Inc can collect royalties from them.  

Cloanto paid $1.00 for "all Amiga Copyrights in the Universe" (yes, that's really what the contract says), and there are no regular license fees to be paid. So at this time, we are in the situation that Hyperion has a license agreement on the 3.1 sources, and for the development of 4.0, and Cloanto has (at the same time) a copyright on Kickstart and workbench up to 3.0 binaries, but probably not the sources.

This reads to me as if Amiga Inc at this time does not own anything anymore which would ensure a regular income, all assets have been sold or licensed, and as it seems, probably even sold twice.The only party that could release AmigaOs sources is probably Amiga Inc, but even there I would not be clear because the copyright might have been transfered to Cloanto, even though it does not appear in the asset list, because it is "some copyright in the universe". Oh well.

For the OS to become open source it would require an agreement between Amiga Inc and Hyperion, and possibly Cloanto too.

Correct. Hyperions Settlement agreement includes that Hyperion has to report breaches of Amiga Inc's interests and has to protect the sources. They cannot be made open source by them. Cloanto, on the other hand, does not seem to have rights on the sources anyhow. The list of assets for which copyright is transfered includes "Kickstart ROM Programs" up to 3.0, but not a source code. Whether Amiga Inc could transfer "the entire Amiga copyrights in the universe" to another party while first licensing the souces to Hyperion is another fascinating question.

Amiga Anywhere/DE was Fleecy's idea and not McBill's.  The idea of the same code running on different CPU architectures without recompilation was ProDAD's intention with p.OS.  

Another nonsense that came to an end. It was a "me, too!" product targetting the same market as Java, and was too little, too late. Even Java did not make it. Who is using Java on the desktop these days, anyhow? Successfully killed by Oracle.

[Kronos]

Amiga Anywhere/DE was Fleecy's idea and not McBill's.  The idea of the same code running on different CPU architectures without recompilation was ProDAD's intention with p.OS.  

No the "idea" was to put just enough lipstick on someone elses SW to lure investors into an IPO scam that never came to pass.

[nicholas]

Amiga Inc can't make a penny from Hyperion since all the licenses granted to Hyperion in the settlement agreement are royalty free.  I don't know what Cloanto's arrangement is and whether Amiga Inc can collect royalties from them.  For the OS to become open source it would require an agreement between Amiga Inc and Hyperion, and possibly Cloanto too.

Amiga Anywhere/DE was Fleecy's idea and not McBill's.  The idea of the same code running on different CPU architectures without recompilation was ProDAD's intention with p.OS.  I wonder if Fleecy ever contacted ProDAD since p.OS was actually intended as a standalone OS compared to TAO's Intent which was simply a media layer.  I seem to recall that either Thomas or Hans-Jörg had told Amiga Inc that Intent was totally unsuitable to be used as a standalone OS.

It was a bit more than just a media layer, the idea of Intent wasn't too far removed from what we see in Android today really.

Interesting recent-ish post from one of the Tao developers here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9806607

[Pat the Cat]

Hyperion Entertainment holds an  exclusive, world-wide, perpetual source-code license to the intellectual  property of AmigaOS 3.1 and additional content as documented in the  publicly available settlement agreement between Hyperion Entertainment  and Amiga, Inc. which has taken the form of a stipulated judgement.
~ http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php/news/38-corporate/167-amigaos-31-source-code-leak-official-statement

Untested in court. It was settled out of court, the court just rubber stamped it... and Amiga Inc never showed a direct path between CBM and themselves, in regards to the copyright on the source code.

I'm not saying there isn't such a direct path of transfer, but I think anybody trying to demonstrate proof of ownership to the copyrighted sourrce code is going to have a hard time of it - they'd have to show an agreement with the CBM liquidators, who were based in the Bahamas, as a starting point, which would include the term. If it wasn't included in the break up of CBM, it was never transferred from CBM.

Without that, nobody has a claim to it, but it's still copyrighted (to CBM).

[TheMagicM]

Folks...

One thing to remember, we are all getting old.  Please make sure you pass on your Amiga beliefs to your kids.  We need these battles to rage on after we are all gone.  LOL.  If your kids dont have an AO account, please have them register. hahahahha

[Lionheart]

Amiga Inc can't make a penny from Hyperion since all the licenses granted to Hyperion in the settlement agreement are royalty free.  I don't know what Cloanto's arrangement is and whether Amiga Inc can collect royalties from them.  For the OS to become open source it would require an agreement between Amiga Inc and Hyperion, and possibly Cloanto too.

Amiga Anywhere/DE was Fleecy's idea and not McBill's.  The idea of the same code running on different CPU architectures without recompilation was ProDAD's intention with p.OS.  I wonder if Fleecy ever contacted ProDAD since p.OS was actually intended as a standalone OS compared to TAO's Intent which was simply a media layer.  I seem to recall that either Thomas or Hans-Jörg had told Amiga Inc that Intent was totally unsuitable to be used as a standalone OS.

The royalties are free but the licensing fees aren't.  

AmigaDE was McEwen and Fleecy's idea.

Question: In January 2000, you have bought all the Amiga Rights and Licences to Gateway, Why ? What were your real motivations with Fleecy Moss (your Vice President - Development) ?  Bill McEwen:  The Real motivations??  We never had the chance under Gateway to execute our plans and strategy.  We believed in our mission and goals, and the only way that these were ever going to happen was if we purchased Amiga, and continued moving forward the strategy that we had laid out.

Source :  http://www.boingball.net/AMIGA_FOR_EVER/Textes/Interviews/Interview_Bill_McEwen_mail2

Their plan of course was their failed attempt at a programming language that would be cross platform compatible with Windows, Linux, and Mac OSX.  They called this AmigaDE, which had as much to do with Amiga as C=USA's computers had to do with Commodore.  Actually, less than C=USA as at least they had the decency to try to replicate the cases for Commodore's computers.  AmigaDE wasn't Amiga, it was an idea two idiots had for a software program they thought they could sell by calling it Amiga after buying the trademarks and copyrights from Gateway.

[Rob]

The royalties are free but the licensing fees aren't.  

That sentence doesn't even make sense.  Perhaps you need to reword it but I think what you're trying to say will still be incorrect.

[Lionheart]

That sentence doesn't even make sense.  Perhaps you need to reword it but I think what you're trying to say will still be incorrect.

You're right, that wasn't worded properly.  I apologize.  The license agreement that Hyperion has with Amiga, Inc. allows them to use certain copyrights and trademarks without paying royalty fees for each program sold.  However, Hyperion still has to pay licensing fees to Amiga, Inc.

[psxphill]

I'm not saying there isn't such a direct path of transfer, but I think anybody trying to demonstrate proof of ownership to the copyrighted sourrce code is going to have a hard time of it - they'd have to show an agreement with the CBM liquidators, who were based in the Bahamas, as a starting point, which would include the term. If it wasn't included in the break up of CBM, it was never transferred from CBM.

It supposedly was....

http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/escombuys.html

"The transaction includes all rights to intellectual property"

I'm sure there will be a paper trail somewhere.

[guest11527]

I'm sure there will be a paper trail somewhere.

There is a trail in the contract between Amiga, Inc. and Cloanto. This contract includes an asset list of copyrights that have been transfered from Amiga Inc to Cloanto - which perhaps surprisingly - does not include source code or the 3.1 ROMs.

It also mentions that "all Amiga copyrights in the universe" are transfered to Cloanto.

The interesting question is now: Where is the copyright to the 3.1 ROMs? Is it included because it is "an Amiga copyright in the universe", or is it not, because its copyright has been transfered as part of the settlement agreement between Hyperion and Cloanto.

Depending on this question, either Cloanto or Hyperion is selling 3.1 ROMs without copyright.

[guest11527]

Depending on this question, either Cloanto or Hyperion is selling 3.1 ROMs without copyright.

So here is an interesting entry in the US copyright database:

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1,1&SAB1=Amiga&BOOL1=all%20of%20these&FLD1=Title%20%28TKEY%29%20%28TKEY%29&GRP1=AND%20with%20next%20set&SAB2=System&BOOL2=as%20a%20phrase&FLD2=Title%20%28TKEY%29%20%28TKEY%29&CNT=25&PID=C5ZaPJyM4eUj90Y5OcwZK6m5rnO&SEQ=20170115041432&SID=9

Sorry for the lengthy URL. You can find it yourself at http://cocatalog.loc.gov, then go to "advanced search", and enter as search terms "Amiga" and "System" in title.

So, according to this entry, the copyright on the 3.1 AmigaOs has *not* been transfered to Cloanto, neither Hyperion, but is still owned by Amiga Inc.

Thus, I really wonder under which rights Cloanto and Hyperion are selling ROMs?

[Minuous]

Amino were willing to relinquish most of their IP for $1?

I am sure the Amiga community could have raised a bounty for $2 for "every Amiga copyright in the universe"...surely McBill would have wanted to raise as much cash as possible? Something strange here...

[Gulliver]

Thus, I really wonder under which rights Cloanto and Hyperion are selling ROMs?

Probably under no right whatsoever, but as there is no entity to legally sue them, they can have it their way and also threaten/deter anyone else from doing the exact same thing.

Additionaly, they can show/throw old contracts or lawsuits, which have nothing to do with this particular subject, which can trick the average Joe into their scheme.

We are royally f*cked!

[kolla]

Folks...

One thing to remember, we are all getting old.

This is something that is much too often forgotten.

Please make sure you pass on your Amiga beliefs to your kids.  We need these battles to rage on after we are all gone.  LOL.  If your kids dont have an AO account, please have them register. hahahahha

Working on it

[guest11527]

Probably under no right whatsoever,

Probably. At least for Hyperion, there is the "Settlement Agreement". A contract is a contract, it does not require testing in court. However, in this settlement agreement, the parties also agreed that Amiga Inc registers Hyperion as copyright holder on 3.1., and also provides the right to Hyperion to register themselfes as copyright holder after 25 days if Amiga Inc. doesn't do it.

This is clause 1d) of the agreement. One way or another, this copyright hand-over never happened, and Amiga Inc. is still registered at the US copyright office. See above for the link.

Then, we have Cloanto, which in the contract have "all Amiga copyrights in the universe", but probably their universe is smaller than mine. The copyright on 3.1 has not been handed over to Cloanto either. It is not listed in the asset list, and neither is Cloanto registered as copyright holder for this particular component.

So, what does that all mean? Amiga Inc. failed to hand over the copyright, Hyperion failed to register the copyright themselves, Amiga failed to hand over the copyright to Cloanto, and Cloanto failed to notice that they have no copyright on 3.1?

We are royally f*cked!

That's the short version of my long version. Probably someone tries to buy the copyright on 3.1. from Amiga Inc for $2?

[psxphill]

This is clause 1d) of the agreement. One way or another, this copyright hand-over never happened, and Amiga Inc. is still registered at the US copyright office. See above for the link.

The US hasn't required registration since it joined the Berne convention in 1989 (not requiring registration is one of the requirements of signing up to the Berne convention). You CAN register with the copyright office if you want everyone to know who to contact. However in terms of copyright ownership, it's largely irrelevant. You don't need to have registered your copyright to issue a DMCA takedown. Supposedly to get awarded damages in court you need to have it registered, but that goes against the Berne convention (especially for owners outside the US).

Neither Hyperion or Cloanto are US companies. So they are unlikely to worry too much what the US copyright office or supreme courts say especially as I don't think Hyperion or Cloanto are going to take anyone to court in the US to get damages from them, while their agreements and previous case rulings are enough to protect themselves in court.

Amino were willing to relinquish most of their IP for $1?

It's hard to transfer legal ownership without consideration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consideration_under_American_law

If two parties are suing each other and want to escape from the court case then they will often do deals like this where property changes hands. A famous example is DEC suing Intel and when they settled in 1997 and Intel agreed to buy StrongARM from DEC for $700 million https://www.cnet.com/news/intel-digital-settle-suit/. The money was essentially damages for the technology that Intel stole, but DEC also got to offload StrongARM as they weren't able to make money out of it. Intel kept it going for a while, but in 2006 they sold it to marvell for $600 million.

Amiga Inc agreed to sell it to a specific person for as part of a bigger deal, a random stranger wouldn't have been able to jump in and offer $2.