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Author Topic: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?  (Read 36829 times)

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Offline kolla

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #179 from previous page: January 07, 2017, 04:48:41 AM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;819214
Kolla, I haven't ever looked at the source code of an operating system written in C. C isn't one of my primary coding languages. I can adjust a C program's data, stuff like getting an Arduino system running. That isn't the same as an operating system.


Er... ok?

Quote
Both the leaked 3.0 (?) and 4 partially or completely rewritten in C, but certain parts of the leaked source must be derived from the BCPL ancestor, TripOS, that was ported to the Amiga. And really, no one has ever attempted a full translation of AmigaDOS, into hand coded assembler. For any kind of Amiga hardware. At least that I'm aware of.

Bits of the operating system can be coded in assembler, and ideally, an OS evolves tailored to the hardware available.

It's amazing how like AmigaDOS TripOS is. Because TriPOS is still in use, networked distros that cost money, by a lot of British insurance companies. :)

Here's a very short overview, with regard to similarities like drivers and libraries. Parts of the leak might well date from a much earlier BCPL ancestor. That isn't true of AmigaOS V4 and later. That's all been redone, which is probably partly WHY V4+ is so greedy on 68K machines for resources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIPOS

Anyway, I haven't looked at the code. Lattice is mentioned in a lot of publicly available Commodore works, and I bought a few, so it's reasonable to assume that was the dev tool used to put the leak together in the first place, V3.0 was a CBM software and firmware release. Isn't that right? I don't know.

Unless, perhaps, it isn't genuine in all respects. That's one possibility, with an internet dissemated file.


I don't understand - why are you talking about OS4?
(And why do you write so much that is not at all relevant here?!)

Maybe you do not know the AmigaOS version string conventions? OS 3.0 was largely "version 39", as in most binaries in OS 3.0 had major version 39. In OS 3.1, these were bumped to 40 and maybe a few 41. In the OS 3.1 leaked sources, there are a few things that have developed further, to version 42.

This has _nothing_ to do with OS4.
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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #180 on: January 07, 2017, 05:07:55 AM »
Quote from: kolla;819239
Er... ok?



I don't understand - why are you talking about OS4?
(And why do you write so much that is not at all relevant here?!)

Maybe you do not know the AmigaOS version string conventions? OS 3.0 was largely "version 39", as in most binaries in OS 3.0 had major version 39. In OS 3.1, these were bumped to 40 and maybe a few 41. In the OS 3.1 leaked sources, there are a few things that have developed further, to version 42.

This has _nothing_ to do with OS4.

Well, if you checked the TripOS link, you would have noted that it lists Amiga V4 as being totally written in C, and earlier versions as being only partially written in C to a certain extent, but not much reference to which libraries and devices are optimized for a given class of Amiga hardware, and also which bits of pre V4 are just slightly altered BCPL to compile on a C compiler. I would guess, not many. :)

As for the leaked source being 3.1, I didn't know that, I thought it was 3.0.

I'm not convinced many people would recognize bits of TripOS in the source code, if it is 3.1. I doubt there is much there, apart from the underlying conventions. On the other hand, BCPL coded into C doesn't look like BCPL anymore. C optimized for C is a different story again.

(sigh)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 05:10:04 AM by Pat the Cat »
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Offline kolla

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #181 on: January 07, 2017, 05:23:33 AM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;819242
Well, if you checked the TripOS link, you would have noted that it lists Amiga V4 as being totally written in C


Oh, I know very well about TRIPOS, so I didnt't feel a need to read wikipedia about it - not surprised some Amiga zealot have dumped in some misinformation about OS4 in there, don't know how many time I have removed bogus information about Amiga from wikipedia (such as IBM getting code to Workbench for use in OS/2 in exchange for CBM getting ARexx - you know, completely nutty "stories")

Quote

As for the leaked source being 3.1, I didn't know that, I thought it was 3.0.


No, it is 3.1 allright, and quite a lot more too. Not sure if it also contains things that were worked on under Amiga Technologies, such as stuff for the Walker, but I don't think so, I believe it must be a dump from someone's hard drive at Commodore.
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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #182 on: January 07, 2017, 05:33:24 AM »
Quote from: kolla;819245
Oh, I know very well about TRIPOS, so I didnt't feel a need to read wikipedia about it - not surprised some Amiga zealot have dumped in some misinformation about OS4 in there, don't know how many time I have removed bogus information about Amiga from wikipedia (such as IBM getting code to Workbench for use in OS/2 in exchange for CBM getting ARexx - you know, completely nutty "stories").

Yeah, like saying AmigaBasic was a Microsoft development.

It wasn't, it was a Metacomco development based on MS source. It's a crying shame how disinformation like that gets put on the internet...

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

If you think TripOS and Metacomco were and are irrelevant to the Amiga, you are wrong. In a big way. I did say it was a short read. I didn't say it was 100% accurate, but don't you think it can be useful to take a different perspective sometimes, rather than insisting that your own perspective is the only perspective?
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Offline olsenTopic starter

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #183 on: January 07, 2017, 02:19:17 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;819205
in one sentence: os4 as a whole has become incompatible with amiga. which is actually the case for what i know. there is apparently less hassle to backport a good deal of aros software to genuine amiga system, not only because it guards the original concepts, it actually runs on 68k, because things like necessary functions are still register parametrized, library interface is interchangeable, hook syntax is apparently the same like the original one and last but not least aros has in comparison to the features it offers a reasonable memory footprint, comparable to original kickstarts.

what an irony..


AmigaOS4 still uses fundamentally the same system architecture (warts and everything) which you would find, for example, on page #7 of the 3rd edition RKM "Libraries". The philosophy of keeping the layer between the APIs and the underlying hardware (e.g. Exec, the CPU and memory) thin, so as to deliver the most power to the user, still applies, too.

Beyond that you're bound by the rules imposed by the development of the target hardware platform over the last 15+ years: ABIs, "glue" logic, off-the-shelf components and how the companies which cast all this into a mainboard you can buy and build a system from.

These hardware dependencies, and the new degrees of freedom they afford you are bound to change how the operating system goes about its business. This doesn't fundamentally restrict code written for that platform to be ported. What does make things more complicated is in how the dependencies through APIs evolve.

For example, how the dos.library in AmigaOS4 has evolved is a result of the "traditional" shortcomings of the dos.library design. These being global, public data structures with strange layout, cryptic labeling, simplistic protocols for avoiding clashes between concurrent access, and of course how file systems fit into this picture. It was hard to tell a "hack" from a "best practice" when interacting with dos.library and its data structures.

The dos.library in AmigaOS4 assumes more responsibilities than was the case in previous versions, in which file systems and client software was left to fend for themselves. The old way of doing things required a file system to implement an inane/insane number of operations, accessing crufty data structures according to very underdocumented rules, and this in turn led to stability issues. It was hard to write a robust file system, but poisonously easy to get it subtly wrong with dire consequences, for which it was extremely difficult to figure out what exactly caused them.

So, for example, dos.library now cares about how file change notifications work, how you would change the volume or device list after a medium change. This sounds like the most pedestrian thing to mention, but what goes on under the hood in dos.library V40 (and below) in these areas is a highly complex and error-prone process. Now there are well-documented and well-defined APIs for dealing with such tasks which are easier to use and far less error prone than what was possible before (new APIs and responsibilities, of course, required a more complex implementation, which the more powerful hardware platform certainly enabled).

Consequently, the crufty code which relied on the old methods was replaced, one component at a time, saving space and leading to a more stable and robust system. The Workbench, the shell commands, etc. were modified to use the new APIs.

You could backport such code, but you'd have to drop in replacements for the new API functions found in dos.library. The same relationship exists between the other "pillars" of the Amiga operating system, such as exec.library, graphics.library, intuition.library and the remainder of the operating system.

This is nothing new. It happened during the transition between Kickstart/Workbench 1.3 and 2.04. Even the Commodore developers themselves came to consider the tools (APIs, data structures, etc.) available in the 1.x days as very crude, compared to what 2.04 and beyond would deliver.

Portability of operating system code is not high on the list of things to keep an eye on when creating a new operating system release. If you find that AROS code makes for better backporting, it is likely because the APIs which the code to be ported relies upon, are extremely similar to what existed in 1994. This is not what AmigaOS4 was designed to deliver: it offers API compatibility, extending to data structures in the same way as Kickstart/Workbench 2.04 did to its precursor.

If you've read so far, congratulation! As you might have concluded by now, I do not subscribe to the idea that what makes an Amiga what it is would be strongly connected to how close it is to the operating system design or target hardware of AmigaOS 3.1.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #184 on: January 07, 2017, 02:32:57 PM »
I'd be more interested in a 68k backport of MorphOS than OS4 as it's more "Amiga-like" in many aspects.  OS4 for 68k would still be nice though.
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Offline nicholas

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #185 on: January 07, 2017, 02:38:11 PM »
Quote from: olsen;819196
I don't believe that this would be the easier option, even in the long run.

The "threshold" when backporting code from AmigaOS4 to AmigaOS 3.x could still be accomplished with reasonable effort (time and manpower) was crossed in about 8-9 years ago. Ever since then new data structures and APIs have been added to AmigaOS4 which significantly increase the difficulties of backporting code.

This happened at Commodore, too, when Kickstart/Workbench 2.x was under development. The toolbox became larger (double the ROM space, double the leverage afforded to software developers), and it became more and more difficult for Commodore to provide the same tools to developers who wanted to use them both in 1.x and 2.x applications.

There weren't many such tools (I remember "amigaguide.library" and the Installer), and there were some 3rd party solutions such as a disk-loaded "gadtools.library". But inside the operating system, the new APIs and data structures created more tightly-coupled code, saving ROM space and allowing for more robust code to be written.

Backporting such code at some point means porting practically everything, because you cannot always conveniently resolve the new interdependencies. Even if you tried, you'd run into practical problems for a hypothetical AmigaOS4 for 68k: AmigaOS4 is designed for a platform with much more RAM. As these things go (Moore's law, etc.) it also requires a more powerful CPU to run smoothly than a 68k platform could deliver (unless you consider emulation a target platform that makes good business sense). Finally, that complex port would have to be tested as well, which is no small challenge to begin with.


OS4.1 runs nicely on a poxy 603 with 256MB RAM and RTG, no reason why it shouldn't perform just as well or better on an Apollo core with more/faster RAM and faster RTG.

Especially if/when the Apollo is available in ASIC form.

Majsta talked about creating an entire computer at some point in the future, would be great if it ran a 68k back port of OS4.1.
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Offline olsenTopic starter

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #186 on: January 07, 2017, 02:44:25 PM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;819247
Yeah, like saying AmigaBasic was a Microsoft development.

It wasn't, it was a Metacomco development based on MS source. It's a crying shame how disinformation like that gets put on the internet...
Are you sure?

Metacomco shipped ABasiC (written in 'C') before Microsoft's AmigaBASIC was ready.

As far as I know AmigaBASIC is strongly related to Microsoft BASIC for Mac. As was common at the time, Commodore licensed Microsoft BASIC for the Amiga, with Microsoft creating the Amiga port. Commodore kept paying Microsoft for fixing implementation bugs over the years, but development work ceased by May 1991.

The AmigaBASIC we know from the Kickstart 1.x days had problems on 32 bit systems, e.g. using the 68020 and 68030 CPUs. On the Apple Macintosh it used to be common practice to make use of the restricted address space of the 68000 CPU, with the most significant 8 bits of an address pointer being ignored. Those 8 bits could be used for "pointer tagging", which the 68000 Macintosh operating system employed for memory management uses.

It's possible that the Kickstart 1.x version of AmigaBASIC used the same techniques, or at least assumed that it could tinker with these 8 bits without ill effect. Making AmigaBASIC work robustly on a 32 bit system might have been too expensive for Commodore.

It's also possible that AmigaBASIC was discontinued (I recall Dr. Peter Kittel mentioning that there was a version which ran fine on the Amiga 3000 and worked correctly with Kickstart/Workbench 2.0) because the need for a home computer to ship with BASIC was no longer a given. It certainly was about a decade ago.
 

Offline olsenTopic starter

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #187 on: January 07, 2017, 03:01:06 PM »
Quote from: kolla;819245
No, it is 3.1 allright, and quite a lot more too. Not sure if it also contains things that were worked on under Amiga Technologies, such as stuff for the Walker, but I don't think so, I believe it must be a dump from someone's hard drive at Commodore.

As far as I know the contents of the archive covers the data which all AmigaOS developers could access through the network.

The NFS client software which was part of AS225 was used to connect the Amigas of the developers to the NFS servers which would contain the operating system source code and the material archived/maintained by CATS.

Speculation: I suspect that one of the engineers took a last snapshot of everything before he left Commodore for a related job, e.g. at NewTek, Scala or 3DO. The time stamp of the last file modified is very, very close to the day when Commodore went bancrupt.
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #188 on: January 07, 2017, 03:20:41 PM »
Quote from: olsen;819267
It's also possible that AmigaBASIC was discontinued (I recall Dr. Peter Kittel mentioning that there was a version which ran fine on the Amiga 3000 and worked correctly with Kickstart/Workbench 2.0) because the need for a home computer to ship with BASIC was no longer a given. It certainly was about a decade ago.


The Software Upgrade manual that shipped with 2.04 (and 2.1?) mentions that Amiga Basic has been removed from the OS but that it's available separately. I don't think the standalone Basic ever made it to commercial release, but if it was in development internally until 1991 then what he's saying about 2.0 and 32bit compatibility makes sense.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #189 on: January 07, 2017, 04:58:50 PM »
Quote from: olsen;819267
Are you sure?

Metacomco shipped ABasiC (written in 'C') before Microsoft's AmigaBASIC was ready.

As far as I know AmigaBASIC is strongly related to Microsoft BASIC for Mac. As was common at the time, Commodore licensed Microsoft BASIC for the Amiga, with Microsoft creating the Amiga port. Commodore kept paying Microsoft for fixing implementation bugs over the years, but development work ceased by May 1991.

The AmigaBASIC we know from the Kickstart 1.x days had problems on 32 bit systems, e.g. using the 68020 and 68030 CPUs. On the Apple Macintosh it used to be common practice to make use of the restricted address space of the 68000 CPU, with the most significant 8 bits of an address pointer being ignored. Those 8 bits could be used for "pointer tagging", which the 68000 Macintosh operating system employed for memory management uses.

It's possible that the Kickstart 1.x version of AmigaBASIC used the same techniques, or at least assumed that it could tinker with these 8 bits without ill effect. Making AmigaBASIC work robustly on a 32 bit system might have been too expensive for Commodore.

It's also possible that AmigaBASIC was discontinued (I recall Dr. Peter Kittel mentioning that there was a version which ran fine on the Amiga 3000 and worked correctly with Kickstart/Workbench 2.0) because the need for a home computer to ship with BASIC was no longer a given. It certainly was about a decade ago.

So much for the myth of the Boing demo being written with a Microsoft product, eh... :) AFAIK, all MS did was sign a license and supply some source. They never actually "developed" AmigaBasic, so it was more a case of porting that ontop of the original Metacomco version. I did badger and probe Microsoft US about updates, back in the day, and was referred back to CBM with no response. Which was like being referred to the Wailing Wall, or the Ka'aba, really.

Anyway, ARexx was a much better choice, in my opinion. An ideal fit for a multitasking OS. Much much much more sensible than any version of Basic. Be able to talk and control between different running applications. That was a much more powerful tool than a programming language aimed at beginners.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 05:05:04 PM by Pat the Cat »
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guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #190 on: January 07, 2017, 05:03:31 PM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;819247
Yeah, like saying AmigaBasic was a Microsoft development.
AmigaBasic *was* a Microsoft development, no doubts about it. Look at the demos. It clearly says "Microsoft Basic"...


Quote from: Pat the Cat;819247
It wasn't, it was a Metacomco development based on MS source. It's a crying shame how disinformation like that gets put on the internet...
You are confusing two products. ABasic, which was shipped probably with the 1.1 version of workbench (I still might have it somewhere), which was from Metacomco, and AmigaBasic, which is a Microsoft development.

The two are *very* different, not even related, leave alone compatible in any way.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #191 on: January 07, 2017, 05:09:21 PM »
Quote from: Matt_H;819270
The Software Upgrade manual that shipped with 2.04 (and 2.1?) mentions that Amiga Basic has been removed from the OS but that it's available separately. I don't think the standalone Basic ever made it to commercial release, but if it was in development internally until 1991 then what he's saying about 2.0 and 32bit compatibility makes sense.

If you search through the CBM bug database (which you probably don't have), you'll notice that there were at least three versions of AmigaBasic (all from Microsoft, of course). The version 1.2, which was shipped on the Extras disk of Workbench 1.2.

Then, internally, there are some traces of a version 1.3 and some test reports about some critical bugs being fixed.

Then, if you dig further, there are also test reports about an AmigaBasic 2.0 version which was tested at least by Doc Kittel (you'll find his test report in the bug database), which fixed more bugs, but certainly not all. It still had the bug that the German U-Umlaut in strings broke "IF-THEN" conditions, a very similar (if not identical) bug being present in the 1.2 release.

The saying is - from Doc Kittel - that CBM did not include the 2.0 release with Kickstart 2.0 because it would have cost them 1$ additional licensing cost per shipped disk, and they didn't want to pay that. Probably also because it was no longer fashionable nor necessary (as in the C64 times) to include a Basic with a machine.

Well, instead they decided to include Arexx. Unlicensed, BTW, as far as I know.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #192 on: January 07, 2017, 05:12:20 PM »
Quote from: olsen;819269
Speculation: I suspect that one of the engineers took a last snapshot of everything before he left Commodore for a related job, e.g. at NewTek, Scala or 3DO. The time stamp of the last file modified is very, very close to the day when Commodore went bancrupt.

Indeed, but I did not look,  I used logic. The last known complete source distro of 3(.1) was CBM. Therefore, the leaker was once a CBM employee.

Thank you for helping to confirm my suspicions. I'm pretty sure I know who now. :)

The following may offend atheists, so look away now...


... God blesss 'em,  and all their leaks. :)
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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guest11527

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Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #193 on: January 07, 2017, 05:19:31 PM »
Quote from: Pat the Cat;819273
So much for the myth of the Boing demo being written with a Microsoft product, eh... :)
Said demo is not Basic, and is completely unrelated to Amiga Basic. Amiga Basic included a "boing balls" demo, which is just a small window with the text "Microsoft Basic" (*sig*!) and two orange balls jumping around the window. But that's not the famous demo the "Boing Ball" is derived from. It's a short Basic demo to test the animation system.

Quote from: Pat the Cat;819273
AFAIK, all MS did was sign a license and supply some source. They never actually "developed" AmigaBasic, so it was more a case of porting that ontop of the original Metacomco version.
Hardly, and I wonder where you got this from. ABasic and Amiga Basic are very different, unrelated to each other. ABasic is Metacomco, a very bare-bone basic interpreter, and Amiga Basic is very much like the Apple version of Microsoft Basic (yes, I've seen this as well), with pretty much the same design - and the same flaws.

As Olaf already pointed out correctly, early versions of Mac Os used the upper eight bits of pointers for resource administration (whether a "handle" is locked, loaded in memory etc..., see "Inside Macintosh", Volume I) and MS apparently used the same system in their Basic, then just ported over to Amiga. Metacomco was never in the game for this dialect of Basic.


Quote from: Pat the Cat;819273
I did badger and probe Microsoft US about updates, back in the day, and was referred back to CBM with no response. Which was like being referred to the Wailing Wall, or the Ka'aba, really.
Because CBM licensed for Amiga, so it would have been their responsibility. As said, there was some enhancements on the road, but in the end, CBM did not license them.


Quote from: Pat the Cat;819273
Anyway, ARexx was a much better choice, in my opinion.
At least a much cheaper. 1$ per disk as opposed to 0$ per disk is an easy decision to take. However, unlike Basic, ARexx is not a beginnner's language, and it did not include an editor, or a GUI, or support for graphics... nothing like that. It's an entirely different type of product, thus hardly comparable.

Whether that's powerful or not is another question, but at least it did not help users to program their system. But back at this time, Basic users were in the minority anyhow. Actually, I would believe most Amiga users were in gaming, not programming, so whether it was Amiga Basic or ARexx would have been utterly irrelevant for most of them in first place.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Consequences of the AmigaOS 3.1 source code "leak", one year after?
« Reply #194 on: January 07, 2017, 05:19:55 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;819275

Well, instead they decided to include Arexx. Unlicensed, BTW, as far as I know.

Interesting. I never got feedback from IBM on Rexx. William (Bill?)l Hawes should know, one wasy or the other.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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