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Author Topic: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS  (Read 6816 times)

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Offline OlafS3

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2016, 10:40:49 PM »
Quote from: UberFreak;804508
I said nothing about anything "for free", I said leave it to the user to decide.
If specific patches are required for the Vampire, release the patches so the user can apply them to his legally bought KS himself, then load it to the Vampire.
I see no problem with this.

As for me, I legally own KS3.1 and OS3.9 and would like to keep using the OS3.9 KS updates.

double post
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2016, 10:51:51 PM »
@Thomas Richter

You are totally wrong there, you think everyone is only motivated by money. I am not against money, expecially when I invest more than spare time in a project. But that is not all... when I started with my 68k distribution I realized the potential of Aros for the 68k community. For some time I got mostly the same things told you are also saying... why Aros there is 3.X

There is 3.X but the sources are more or less useless today even for our small community sticking legally in nowhere.

For me it has the advantage of:
sources free available
no license fee
guarantee not to be destroyed by anyone out there

That are big advantages. Regarding being bad that open source being used for something commercial. Was that serious? If yes I cannot speak for every aros developer of course just for myself... I would be more than happy if it would be used. That was my vision years ago... one OS for real and future hardware and emulation, free distributable and evolving to a kind of standard.
 

guest11527

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Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2016, 10:56:14 PM »
Quote from: UberFreak;804508
I said nothing about anything "for free", I said leave it to the user to decide.
This is all fair enough...

Quote from: UberFreak;804508
If specific patches are required for the Vampire, release the patches so the user can apply them to his legally bought KS himself, then load it to the Vampire.
...but this is were the shady part begins. If you as a user apply a patch to your kickstart, this is probably fine enough and nobody cares, but if the product *depends* on you modifying a system component you as a user do not own, but have only licencened, then this product may breach the Os license.

It's really not quite so easy.

If the vampire runs on an unaltered, original Kickstart, then there is of course no problem to begin with. This is necessary to be able to sell it without conflicting with your kickstart license. Or at least IMHO. Again, IANAL.

Quote from: UberFreak;804508
As for me, I legally own KS3.1 and OS3.9 and would like to keep using the OS3.9 KS updates.
Sure, but that's really a matter of the vampire design, isn't it? You can of course keep the Os 3.9 updates as you have them and bought them, but it's not up to the Apollo team to patch Os 3.9 to keep it working. It's up to them to design the core such that it runs Os 3.9 natively.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2016, 10:56:34 PM »
@Thomas Richter

From your posts it is obvious that you have not done much with Aros 68k. I have no problem with that, I have the same interest left in 3.X... zero

But do not make judgements just based on opinions because you prefer 3.X
 

guest11527

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Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2016, 11:11:27 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;804512
@Thomas Richter

You are totally wrong there, you think everyone is only motivated by money.
No, and I never claimed that. But a developer that is not motivated by money is motivated by the beauty of the design (or, at least mostly, and typically). Unfortunately, this is exactly *not* what we find in case of AmigaOs.

Again, to repeat myself, the motivation between closed source and open source are entirely different, and the source of the motivation does not necessarily correlate well to the needs of the project.

Quote from: OlafS3;804512
For me it has the advantage of:
sources free available
no license fee
guarantee not to be destroyed by anyone out there
Yes, but the drawbacks are that

you cannot steer the development
you cannot enforce compatibility
you cannot ensure that your users are happy (unless your users are your developers)

Once again, for AmigaOs, the major problem is really the amount of legacy cruft. As an open source developer, there are many constructions I would like to get rid off. However, as a project manager, I would certainly tell my developers not to touch them because they would break applications.

Can you really tell open source developers: "Hey, keep this interface stable for the next years"? My experience with Linux is: No, you can't.
 

guest11527

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Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2016, 11:27:16 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;804514
@Thomas Richter

From your posts it is obvious that you have not done much with Aros 68k. I have no problem with that, I have the same interest left in 3.X... zero

But do not make judgements just based on opinions because you prefer 3.X
Look, this is not a matter about personal preference. It is a matter of a project design goals and how to reach them. The project design goals, the utterly important goal, is to ensure that we don't break compatibility. Most of the Amiga applications are old applications, and not new ones. We cannot adapt them to new software.

The reason why I believe that a closed source development is the right choice here is not personal preference, but because I believe it is the right development method for the above goals.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2016, 12:04:16 AM »
As Hyperion is the only entity entitled to develop OS' based on 3.1 source code, an enhanced version of 3.1 from Cloanto would still have to carry an OS3.1 designation.
OS4 for the 68K does not seem that unrealistic if the processor is powerful enough.

AROS68K still is not quite 'done' yet (it has more than a few issues).

And frankly, I don't mind paying for another person's work, so NO open source is NOT a necessity.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

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Offline QuikSanz

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2016, 03:28:53 AM »
IMHO, would like to see Amiga 68K continued! afaik Hague & Partner did 3.5 and 3.9 so no go on that.
Why not start at 3.1.1 or 3.2 and upgrade form there for a new path?
Cloanto has access to most new libs and patches anyway.

Chris
 

Offline nicholas

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2016, 08:25:25 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;804520
As Hyperion is the only entity entitled to develop OS' based on 3.1 source code, an enhanced version of 3.1 from Cloanto would still have to carry an OS3.1 designation.
OS4 for the 68K does not seem that unrealistic if the processor is powerful enough.

AROS68K still is not quite 'done' yet (it has more than a few issues).

And frankly, I don't mind paying for another person's work, so NO open source is NOT a necessity.

As I understand it Cloanto owns the whole 3.1 IP and can do whatever they want with it.
Hyperion are merely a licencee of the code and the AmigaOS trademark.
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline Terminills

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Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2016, 08:28:06 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;804517


Yes, but the drawbacks are that

you cannot steer the development
you cannot enforce compatibility
you cannot ensure that your users are happy (unless your users are your developers)



You most certainly can steer development of your own fork of ANY opensource project.

 You are not required to continue down the path of the main branch.   Hell for that matter the dos.library of MorphOS is a fork of the dos.library of AROS.  looks to me they controlled the direction they wanted to go with it pretty well(they are now very different).  I could list some other parts used by MorphOS or AOS4 but I'm lazy. ;)
Support AROS sponsor a developer.

edited by mod: this has been addressed
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2016, 09:42:32 AM »
Quote from: Terminills;804548
You most certainly can steer development of your own fork of ANY opensource project.

 You are not required to continue down the path of the main branch.   Hell for that matter the dos.library of MorphOS is a fork of the dos.library of AROS.  looks to me they controlled the direction they wanted to go with it pretty well(they are now very different).  I could list some other parts used by MorphOS or AOS4 but I'm lazy. ;)

If I remember correctly, also a few gadgets were also backported from Aros to AmigaOS 3.9.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2016, 11:05:28 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;804517
But a developer that is not motivated by money is motivated by the beauty of the design (or, at least mostly, and typically). Unfortunately, this is exactly *not* what we find in case of AmigaOs.


thats scary news, since that is exactly the reason of the current situation, there is apparently no money to be made nor personal satisfaction here and therefore there is no updates. what concerns aros state, progress and motivation of the developers you dont even need to rely on deadwoods reports. you can simply judge that quite objectivly based on the rete and content of commits:
https://trac.aros.org/trac/timeline


Quote
Again, to repeat myself, the motivation between closed source and open source are entirely different, and the source of the motivation does not necessarily correlate well to the needs of the project.

the question is who defines "needs of the project". in case of os4 there is a "commercial" entity whose interest is a basic support the variety of hardware their customers could be convinced to collect. this is how they earn their money, as its been openly admitted by their technical director. now, does the vaste majority of potential target audience agree with it? it doesnt look like that. so wouldnt it be better to align to what that target audience postulate? this option has been refused and openly blocked for years, while trying to impose the solutions on the audience, argumenting with loyality, necessity to support the platform and the like. in this context open source, like aros, seems like more flexible option.

Quote

Yes, but the drawbacks are that

you cannot steer the development

as we see the current politics have led to nothing. in a democracy the leaders would be voted away in such case. in a serious enterprise management would have to take consequences and would most likely be replaced. even a tyrant in a totalitarian state might face a threat of revolution. this is how society dynamics handles such issues, and it happened in case of what is left of amiga: people realized there is no fun here anymore and left.

is there any possibility for wider audience to reconsider and return? i dont know. but certainly not by the means that are currently proposed. and its not solely os4 i am speaking of.

Quote

you cannot enforce compatibility

you can, in fact everybody can, depending only on dedication and skills, the sources are at your hands. this is the question of personal initiative and cooperation. the opposite is the case: in closed source development environment you cant enforce anything except you are the leader of the project. you can only pretty please. and this has been proven not to work in this particular case.

Quote

you cannot ensure that your users are happy (unless your users are your developers)

we wouldn be talking about this subject if the majority of users/developers were happy with the situation as is. amiga community today only has sense and chance as a pool of initiatives (which it is, look at the amount of projects going on). treated sipmly as a dumb customership and solely as a source of income, that needs some half done products thrown at it it wont fluorish but decay.

Quote

Once again, for AmigaOs, the major problem is really the amount of legacy cruft. As an open source developer, there are many constructions I would like to get rid off. However, as a project manager, I would certainly tell my developers not to touch them because they would break applications.

therefore it isnt wrong to start from the scratch in certain cases. as a user/tester/contributor to aros68k i see the compatibility improving nevertheless.

Quote

Can you really tell open source developers: "Hey, keep this interface stable for the next years"? My experience with Linux is: No, you can't.

you dont need to tell that to the developers, they now that themselves. this is the whole point in aros abi v1, where one of the main references is binary compatibility to the esicting amiga software.

certainly there are corner compatibilty cases where the agreement is difficult, some software poking with the internal structures, which are not exactly aligned as customary, like in case of hd-rec. but even in this particular case the source of the application is open and allows adjustments. see the gain?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 11:09:54 AM by wawrzon »
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2016, 04:34:35 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;804520
As Hyperion is the only entity entitled to develop OS' based on 3.1 source code, an enhanced version of 3.1 from Cloanto would still have to carry an OS3.1 designation.
OS4 for the 68K does not seem that unrealistic if the processor is powerful enough.

AROS68K still is not quite 'done' yet (it has more than a few issues).

And frankly, I don't mind paying for another person's work, so NO open source is NOT a necessity.

Yes... please enlighten me about Aros 68k

And there is no option to get 4.X for 68k, it is about licensing a small modified 3.1 version
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2016, 04:44:41 PM »
double post
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 05:00:29 PM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2016, 05:00:00 PM »
Quote from: Gulliver;804552
If I remember correctly, also a few gadgets were also backported from Aros to AmigaOS 3.9.

and tons of components can be added or parts replaced. Aros includes  AHI, CybergraphX 3, Themeing, enhanced menu, Poseidon, PCI/Support,  MESA/Gallium (still slow), Windows can moved out of the screen, impoved  memory management and many patches you needed to add on 3.1. You can use  both Magellan and Scalos now (my personal favorite is Magellan).

You can add MUI 3.8 easily by basically replace 2 files. WHDLoad works,  you can add Wazp3D/Stormmesa and so on. When we talk about aros here we  talk about the typical base libraries like dos, graphics, intuition,  gadtools and so on. I could bore everyone by continuing... :)

I am always fascinated how people that certainly never use aros in  general and aros 68k in special have such firm fact based views. I could  not and would never do that about MorphOS f.e. because I do not own and  use it.

As Terminills wrote you can fork aros if you think it is going in the  wrong direction and 3.1. compatiblity is main goal of aros (already used  against aros in discussions) so Aros devs certainly will not break  compatibility just for fun.

Where Aros is slower certainly when  doing operations in ECS/AGA, that is visible in benchmarks. Aros was  developed for and on X86 with graphic cards so the original hardware  never was a goal. Additionally CybergraphX in Aros 68k is a wrapper on  P96 so I could very much guess that Aros 68k directly addressing the  framebuffer on Vampire is at least not slower than a similar  configuration based on 3.X and P96. As I wrote on ECS/AGA that might be  different but I think most new software will be written for RTG and to  run old software certainly Aros is fast enough (most old games do not  use the OS anyway).

So how I see it to go Thomas Richters route:
Pay Hyperion lots of money for the license
Pay the owner of P96 for a license
Pay  one or more developers for adapting both (in case of 3.1 you certainly  need to sign NDAs what reduces the number of developers being able to do  that)

And then you are very much dependent on the owner of 3.1., you cannot fork and develop in a different direction.

Then what is what you pay for? Just a binary?

I do not see any sense in that...
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: [Vampire] OS3.x VS AROS
« Reply #29 from previous page: February 24, 2016, 05:25:37 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;804570

So how I see it to go Thomas Richters route:
Pay Hyperion lots of money for the license
Pay the owner of P96 for a license
Pay  one or more developers for adapting both (in case of 3.1 you certainly  need to sign NDAs what reduces the number of developers being able to do  that)

And then you are very much dependent on the owner of 3.1., you cannot fork and develop in a different direction.

Then what is what you pay for? Just a binary?

I do not see any sense in that...


As much as I would like to see a new version of AmigaOS for Amigas, Olaf seems to have it right in pointing out the huge effort required.

Fork Aros is the name of the game.