[UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.

[Niding]

@Thomas

I think many Amiga users are more than willing to pay a decent amount for improved OS, soft/hardware.
Its why we have "harassed" AeonKit about Prisma soundcard. Ofcourse, now they have waited so long that I fear they get stuck with the hardware since "everybody" is using Vampire to play sound since CPU can easily take the load.
Question is ofcourse if Prisma can offload the Vampire freeing it up to get even better performance while multitasking other programs/games.

People bought AOS4.1FE just to emulate it, and from what I understand it sold in relativly good quantities.
Wether or not the "potential" sales due to Vampire is enough for developers to update their software/drivers...Who knows...

But it seems Apollo Team is quite open with information, so if they keep updating us with salesfigures, the potential can be somewhat calculated.
People buying Vampire are of the more active members of this community, and I would expect a share of them are willing to pay a few bucks here and there for new software.

And getting offended by Kolla seems like setting yourself up for constant grief. Hes a loose cannon on deck, shooting at everybody (eg veit du har mykje kunnskap kolla, men du liker å ..diskutere.. franko style )

[grond]

With the given resources, I doubt anyone can create something "really attractive". What I had in mind was mostly a really cleaned up version with some improvements here and there. It never got far enough to give you a price point.

So you agree that is nothing that would be worth the 10,000€ Gunnar offered to Hyperion?

Correct. Which happens at this point. It is sold to end users and now a commercial product. It has left the hobby-project development route.

But there is no serious money made. Gunnar&Co haven't earned a single penny. Majsta is still working to deliver the prepaid boards which he offered for a low price and which now are delivered with a much greater (and more expensive) functionality than originally promised. kipper2k builds boards and sells them but has also had to invest in all this. The price point of the vampire is so low that he needs the money from a first batch to buy parts for the next. BTW, he's the guy who also paid for 3.1 licenses.

So what would be a hobby project for you? Should we give away the hardware for free to still qualify?

Part of the discussion was that P96 was to be bought completely by Hyerion (they currently only have a license). This money goes from Hyperion to T&A. Where is this money supposed to come from?

Are you serious? So your idea was that Gunnar buys Hyperion some software they want or need just to be allowed to sell a driver to that same software?

I think Gunnar made a big mistake to show picasso on vampire publically (using your closed-source driver) before there was a final license agreement. This made all this mess with Hyperion and you possible. There suddenly seemed to be an opportunity to put some pressure on Gunnar to go with Hyperion and thus eventually OS3.1. It was mere luck that this problem was solved by the appearance of Jason on the scene who wrote the driver in just three days.

I do not know. They do not seem to be interested in making business with Gunnar directly. I can only speculate why.

Interestingly you seem to only know what suits your needs.

Look, I have little problem excluding Hyperion if T&A are paid directly. I'm not exactly a fan of them either. However, it seems that there is currently no ongoing negotiations between Gunnar and T&A whatsoever. My understanding of the situation is that P96 has been or will be sold in total to Hyperion (by money, of course), in which case T&A would be no longer part of the game because they no longer want to be part of the game.

Then any payment to them from the apollo team would be based on nothing else but good will.

Negotiations are then to be made with Hyperion.

There will be no negotiations with Hyperion.

Unfortunately, as long as T&A are the authors and owners of P96, they are part of the story, and you simply cannot ignore license conditions because they don't want to negotiate with you directly.

YOU are constantly ignoring license conditions! T&A offered two license models: vendor license and distribution of driver through the vendor or shareware to be paid by the user. We have chosen to decline the first and use the second. That's it.

[wawrzon]

Neither - nor. Again, I'm not under NDA from Hyperion, we have no contract. Neither am I under NDA from T&A, nor do I have a contract in this direction. Nobody is paying me, and these are all my sole and only personal opinions.

Call this my personal view on the affairs as an developer who helped once in P96 development, and a developer who saw the demise of P96 due to a dishonest company (Elbox, namely) simply using P96 for their commercial products. I also see that this history just repeats.


Don't worry, I've made my points more than clear with Gunnar already.



Indeed, same problems all again.

If you ask me where to make the cut (personal opinion): As long as I have a hobby project, and develop a driver for a low-volume series for a couple of friends in a non-profit way, I'll believe I as a developer would be fine. No harm done.

As soon, however, as I sell a product for a commercial interest, I personally see problems. Elbox is such a candidate for sure. They sold products to end-users, including drivers, hence created products for money that clearly depended on third party work, yet didn't want to pay for this third party work.

About the two other products I do not know enough to state a clear position.

so, this is your personal opinion. you have no contact to the original developers, who are being reported not to care personally and be fine with situation as is (sounds very likely). the demise  of p96 due to dishonest company already happened and therefore wont happen again. and still you go on a crusade agains apparently a honest appointment between gunnar and the original developers, because some third party, that has proven track of record of misinformation, lack of support, broken promisses and the like wanted to chip in in that deal.

really.. why do you care at all. i trust your good will and that you had hope to find some constructive compromise here, but what you are telling only makes it to look more utopic, based on communitys experience with parties involved.

[wawrzon]

@thor

btw. if you have a list of people who would have helped with improving the os for part of money gunnar would pay to hyperion (im sure they would keep some part of it) why not put up some aros bounties the people can work towards and be dependably rewarded that way?

i mean i doubt hyperion is a potential source of investments here, the money must come from elsewhere. so logically, if they are not involved, there is potentially more funds at disposal, as they dont need to be granted a share, for whatever they would do, likely nothing.

[dovi]

I will write here my toughts again as outsider (Atari user) as I follow Apollo core development as possible solution for Atari clones/accelerators (it is not in ussable state yet for us by my opinion).

I think the licences are not the problem for accelerators if it is not shipped to the user with preinstalled software which needs lisences. If it would come to the user with preinstalled AROS and user can change that to use AOS instead, it is up to user to take the risk of breaking licence.

If there will be a stanalone clone there could be more problems regardin that but this is to early to discuss that or better to say ... it is not productive at all!

The person who will invest the money into this project will take the risk of being sued because of violating any legal rights. And I believe that person will solve those problems before he will invest his money.

With this discussion here you are not productive, but you are destructive! Dont argue about the things you dont have to! You dont take a risk until you dont violate licences by yourself. If you violate licences, dont talk about that.  It is that simple

Amiga community (and Atari even more) is so small that dont play any role in computer world (today), but you are thinking as you are big players. Nobody cares about Amiga and Atari except "few" enthusiasts. And Amiga or Atari wont play any role in the future again.

BTW. Apollo core has potential ... also to be commercialy successfull. But ...

[kipper2k]

If that is so, good.

Another obvious limitation is of course the current production line, which from what I understand is kipper2k and his soldering iron.

 not to worry, i have a magical soldering iron that can fit underneath the fpga and solder each one of the 484 balls by hand... k, back to work, i need to finish this board by the end of this month, i believe i have a customer

[guest11527]

really.. why do you care at all. i trust your good will and that you had hope to find some constructive compromise here, but what you are telling only makes it to look more utopic, based on communitys experience with parties involved.

Why do I care at all? That is indeed a good question. I care why I saw that the P96 was more or less going down the drain because a dishonest vendor - Elbox namely - just took the P96 core and used it to sell their products, and returned no money whatsoever to the authors.

And now I see all this happening again.

I'm sorry, this really p*sses me off. It's exactly this type of dishonesty that caused a lot of problems in the Amiga world: CBM, essentially stealing ARexx. Elbox stealing P96, Haage & Partner stealing Genesis.And now, yet again?

Oh, please, do we *really* need to repeat history?

It would be really about time that we get things done the right way and the correct way.

[OlafS3]

Why do I care at all? That is indeed a good question. I care why I saw that the P96 was more or less going down the drain because a dishonest vendor - Elbox namely - just took the P96 core and used it to sell their products, and returned no money whatsoever to the authors.

And now I see all this happening again.

I'm sorry, this really p*sses me off. It's exactly this type of dishonesty that caused a lot of problems in the Amiga world: CBM, essentially stealing ARexx. Elbox stealing P96, Haage & Partner stealing Genesis.And now, yet again?

Oh, please, do we *really* need to repeat history?

It would be really about time that we get things done the right way and the correct way.

you saw it going down the drain 20 years ago and now you want make a exempel of gunnar as revenge for what happened 20 years ago? :confused:

Please step back and start thinking... you are intelligent

the computers are delivered with a kickstart, nothing else

the aros driver is recommended for aros but also works with P96 but has to downloaded by the users on its own

there is nothing preinstalled, no 3.1. and no P96

if the P96 owner want shareware fees they should show up and say where people can register. If they offer updates people will certainly spend money on it

[wawrzon]

And now I see all this happening again.

it happened once. under different circumstances. if gunnar has approached the genuine coders and has their approval its all fine. a completely different thing. you have all the time poating as if you have been in contact with those and mediating an agreement. as it turns out, you didint have any contact and are relying on what gunnar and hyperion say. why are you insisting on your personal views based on hearsay as being objective?

I'm sorry, this really p*sses me off. It's exactly this type of dishonesty that caused a lot of problems in the Amiga world: CBM, essentially stealing ARexx. Elbox stealing P96, Haage & Partner stealing Genesis.And now, yet again?

Oh, please, do we *really* need to repeat history?

It would be really about time that we get things done the right way and the correct way.

and yet we are here. doesnt look like gunnar was doing anythig particularly wrong in this context. it may not be exactly by the book, but it isnt incorrect so far, while others are.

i dont like to think like that. but im really starting to feel that you are being pissed off not because the original developers are not getting their share, but because hyperion has missed an opportunity to intermediate and gain on that.

[guest11527]

So you agree that is nothing that would be worth the 10,000€ Gunnar offered to Hyperion?

You told me that you've some experience in Jura. So what's your hourly rate? I know mine. How much time would 10000€ pay you? How much time would it pay a software developer? How much time would it pay a freelance hobby developer. Please be honest, check the numbers carefully.

If those 10.000€ are somewhere lost in the machinary of Hyperion: I believe we agree, that's not worth it. If the 10.000€ arrive - to some degree - in the pockets of the developers, that's probably not too bad a deal at all.

[Kremlar]

you are being pissed off not because the original developers are not getting their share, but because hyperion has missed an opportunity to intermediate and gain on that.

Bingo!

[wawrzon]

If those 10.000€ are somewhere lost in the machinary of Hyperion: I believe we agree, that's not worth it. If the 10.000€ arrive - to some degree - in the pockets of the developers, that's probably not too bad a deal at all.

but this money is not donated by hyperion. they only want an administrative share. who knows how much. once assumed the money is there, wherever it has been found, isnt that better if all the money arrive in the pockets of actual developers?

[grond]

How much time would 10000€ pay you?

You know the old saying. People that talk about money or sex in public don't have it.

[guest11527]

Bingo!

What? I'm sorry, I don't know what you're thinking. I don't mind Hyperions demise, nor do I work for them, nor do I have a contract with them, nor have I received anything from them, nothing. I mind the demise of AmigaOs. There was a window of opportunity that would have allowed an ongoing development of the Os. Unfortuantely, it does not work without Hyperion. No, I do not like this either. If you see any other chance how to work on AmigaOs - let me know.

[guest11527]

but this money is not donated by hyperion. they only want an administrative share. who knows how much. once assumed the money is there, wherever it has been found, isnt that better if all the money arrive in the pockets of actual developers?

Of course it is. Now tell me, which plan do you have to get it there? Or rather, would you help to make this plan become real?

[Kremlar]

What? I'm sorry, I don't know what you're thinking. I don't mind Hyperions demise, nor do I work for them, have a contract with them, have received anything from them, nothing. I mind the demise of AmigaOs. There was a window of opportunity that would have allowed an ongoing development of the Os. Unfortuantely, it does not work without Hyperion. No, I do not like this either. If you see any other chance how to work on AmigaOs - let me know.

Yet you advocate for working with Hyperion regarding the P96 deal?  Doesn't add up.  If you truly cared about the authors' of P96 best interest you would be encouraging them to work with Gunnar on compensation.

Saying they can't be bothered to work with Gunnar and only want to deal with Hyperion seems silly.  If they wanted compensation for the license they would deal with Gunnar directly.  Who doesn't want 'free' money?

If they wanted to sell the entire product to Hyperion directly and no longer bother with licensing then they should do that irregardless of any deal that Gunnar might or might not make.

The whole thing seems like a shady play by Hyperion to get some cash to stave off starvation.  I truly believe that the sooner Hyperion is out of business the better it is for the Amiga community.

I think you misunderstand the whole open source thing, or are putting too much weight on the opinion of 1 or 2 people.

Most prefer AmigaOS being open sourced or AROS over continuing to fund Hyperion for pretty much nothing in return.

If a legitimate update to AmigaOS 3.x was released for a reasonable amount of money I think it would sell, even if the money went to Hyperion, but it would sell more if Hyperion were no longer involved.