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Offline nicholas

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2016, 10:42:57 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802550
I do not know. I haven't licenced it. Ask Tobias and Alex whether this is a legimitate driver or not. And, as I said before, the uae part of the uaegfx component (written in C) is only the end-point of the 68K P96 endpoint of the driver. Whether *that* has been licensed and by whom I do not know.

Just for your information: If I'm the author, I can of course decide to change the license of some components under GPL if I like to. Or sub-license them.

So please, could you please stop to try to construct a case that P96 is under GPL, or its SDK is under GPL? It isn't. Or if you don't believe me, go get a lawyer to clarify.

Until then, could you just please be so kind and respect that Tobias and Alex did not want to put P96 under GPL or OpenSource? That was clearly their intention. Even if you do not like that.

 The P96 uaegfx driver *is* licenced under the GPL whether you like it or not. This is a fact and as long as it is used in full accordance with the terms it is licensed under there is nothing you nor anyone else can do to stop someone using it whether you like it or not.  I have not made the claim that P96 itself nor its SDK are licenced under the GPL, nor has anyone else. Please stop making false claims to win an argument, stick to facts and you can't go wrong.  The uaegfx driver was licenced from Tobias and Alex by Cloanto and written by Brian King. It is as "official" as any of the other p96 drivers (with the exception of the Elbox driver).
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 10:48:08 AM by nicholas »
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline Georg

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2016, 10:49:08 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802488

P96 was a tremendous work  - it is more or less a re-implementation of a major part of the Amiga graphics.library.


Work with no kind of reverse engineering needed by P96 coders? That would be surprising. They got all the info/docs/license for being able to do it from the Amiga owner of that time?
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2016, 11:23:55 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;802551
The P96 uaegfx driver *is* licenced under the GPL whether you like it or not. This is a fact and as long as it is used in full accordance with the terms it is licensed under there is nothing you nor anyone else can do to stop someone using it whether you like it or not.

I do not want to stop anyone from using anything. Just to make sure that you read me correctly: I am saying "I do not know". Please check again.

I'm just sick about this argument that "because the UAEgfx driver is GPL, we can just rip it, create a driver for vampire and by that avoid any payment to the authors".

No, sorry, won't happen with me. The UAEGfx driver was meant to be a driver for UAE. Not for vampire. And no, it is not the SDK and not a suitable replacement, and not a basis I would work from. In fact, I would probably avoid to work from any GPL code if I can.
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2016, 11:27:45 AM »
Quote from: Georg;802552
Work with no kind of reverse engineering needed by P96 coders? That would be surprising. They got all the info/docs/license for being able to do it from the Amiga owner of that time?

Again, "I do not know". I'm neither Alex nor Tobias. All I can tell is that their code looks quite different than the graphics code in the kickstart. Actually, it looks quite a bit better (which, however, doesn't mean much. The graphics code does not exactly set high standards).
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2016, 11:42:07 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802553
I do not want to stop anyone from using anything. Just to make sure that you read me correctly: I am saying "I do not know". Please check again.

I'm just sick about this argument that "because the UAEgfx driver is GPL, we can just rip it, create a driver for vampire and by that avoid any payment to the authors".

No, sorry, won't happen with me. The UAEGfx driver was meant to be a driver for UAE. Not for vampire. And no, it is not the SDK and not a suitable replacement, and not a basis I would work from. In fact, I would probably avoid to work from any GPL code if I can.

 It's not "ripping" anything, it's using a work of code in full accordance with the licence it is published under. Very much legal and as I'm sure you will agree complying with licence terms is very much a good thing. It is very disrespectful of an authors wishes to use his work without complying with the licence he granted you to use it under.  Here's the announcement regarding the uaegfx driver being licenced from Tobias and Alex by Cloanto.  http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/AN-2001-10-00276-DE.html
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2016, 11:54:09 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;802555
It's not "ripping" anything, it's using a work of code in full accordance with the licence it is published under.  
Very well. I've no problem with code under GPL, that's a choice every author can do. I'm neither saying that the UAEGfx driver is invalid. It is, however, a possibility that sounds not too unrealistic for me. But that's really not my concern, I've no interest in this component, and I'm neither the owner of any of the components involved. So why do you care so much about it?  
Quote from: nicholas;802555
Very much legal and as I'm sure you will agree complying with licence terms is very much a good thing. It is very disrespectful of an authors wishes to use his work without complying with the licence he granted you to use it under.
Very well, but then you should also understand that this driver is not a replacement for the SDK. I believe I already said this. And I believe I already said that I wouldn't want to work from GPL code in first place, so in particular not from this source. So I certainly do not breach any license.  
Quote from: nicholas;802555
Here's the announcement regarding the uaegfx driver being licenced from Tobias and Alex by Cloanto.  http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/AN-2001-10-00276-DE.html

So Cloanto did their homework. Good to know, and I did not expect anything else. But what exactly does that prove concerning the matter whether the UAEGfx driver is legit and based on the SDK?
 

Offline Terminills

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2016, 12:06:43 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802556

So Cloanto did their homework. Good to know, and I did not expect anything else. But what exactly does that prove concerning the matter whether the UAEGfx driver is legit and based on the SDK?


Quote

I am not sure about original version (I think it was by Brian King) but new version since 1.5 is by me. There is non-public device driver "document" (that lists all functions and parameters + header files) that explain how to develop drivers.

Unfortunately it have absolutely no information about RTG.

Do not ask me, I am not allowed to distribute it. (anyway, you can "reverse-engineer" that information from winuae sources..)



http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=629121&styleid=4&styleid=1
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edited by mod: this has been addressed
 

Offline Gulliver

 

Offline kolla

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2016, 12:33:56 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;802512
So if you did a design and your company decided to not pay you but use it anyway, you'd still have the design so you wouldn't mind not being paid?

Correct. In fact this happens all the time already, as what we design here in Norway is also used elsewhere in Europe and the world. Sometimes parties join to cover development of software, the end result is still available free of charge as open source software. We develop software and solutions because we need them, not to earn money.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 01:02:46 PM by kolla »
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kolla

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2016, 12:45:48 PM »
Nobody stole anything P96, and still they were pissed off and withdrew from "the market" - why people are still desperately messing around with P96 is beyond what I can understand. It was always very awkward software, witb the least intuitive and Amiga like prefs software ever, so of course it was bound to become "the standard", because, you know... obnoxious German besserwissers :)
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kolla

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2016, 12:50:05 PM »
And Thomas, no, I don't expect "everything for free", that is solely your narrowminded stuck-in-the-past understanding. I pay for stuff I believe in, I contribute to software development using my own money. I know it must sound wild whack crazy for you that people pay money for source code only to have it opened up, so anyone can download it. That says more about your view, than mine really.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kolla

Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2016, 01:04:46 PM »
And as for Vampire2 and hdmi output - I *much* rather want to see improved AGA than RTG.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2016, 01:20:00 PM »
Quote from: Terminills;802558
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=629121&styleid=4&styleid=1
Yes, this "document not allowed to spread" is part of the SDK. Along with the headers and includes. This shows that the author had access to the SDK (one way or another).
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2016, 01:25:24 PM »
Quote from: kolla;802562
Nobody stole anything P96, and still they were pissed off and withdrew from "the market" - why people are still desperately messing around with P96 is beyond what I can understand.
Excuse me, but you'll better leave this to people with a bit more insight into the matter. I know you ignore copyright and disrespect the choices of the authors, but that does not necessarily go to all the rest of mankind...

Quote from: kolla;802562
It was always very awkward software, witb the least intuitive and Amiga like prefs software ever, so of course it was bound to become "the standard", because, you know...

Actually, the software itself has to care about the rather ill-defined graphics interface (graphics is really a mess) so it's astonishing that something like P96 is actually possible in first place. It's really a patch-bomb thrown on the system. For this constraint, it is a very good work, and as I said, it really looks better than graphics.

Quote from: kolla;802562
obnoxious German besserwissers :)

Look, I've really no interest to play on this level.
 

guest11527

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2016, 01:39:19 PM »
Quote from: kolla;802561
We develop software and solutions because we need them, not to earn money.

It is a rather convenient position to have the taxpayer keeping care of your bill, but not everyone is in this pleasant position. Norway has enough oil (yet) to fund you at this time, but you should try - at least for a while - to work in the industry, just a bit, to see the other side of the medal.

I've done both, actually. Currently, I'm pretty much in the same position as you right now (so I'm happy), but I'm not as arrogant as you to state that closed source development has to be damned. I believe a good software engineer should be able to make a living (which you cannot, in Amiga land, let's face it, even less with users like you), and not a living from the taxpayer but from his customers.

Both development models have their drawbacks and merrits. Pick the one that suits your case best. As far as public positions are concerned, we're here clearly stating that the tax payer paid for it, so should have access to it. That's fair, too.

But that does not mean that I ignore the need for people to create closed source software; its development is often quicker and driven by the market, not by some abstract funding goals you'll get from the latest university project. It's a much harder life in private industry, and I would wish you could appreciate that at some point when you grow older and wiser. You should have done that to appreciate how hard work has to go into products compared to the cozy job you have.

This being said, I'm really set up by how arrogantly you deny the choices of the original authors. *This* makes me mad. Not the usual sales talk on Open Source - that's just a choice of your business model and I'm fine with whatever fits your needs. There are markets where open source works, and others where it does not.
 

Offline Georg

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Re: Video of Vampire board
« Reply #59 from previous page: January 20, 2016, 03:22:28 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;802550

As a side note, no, you cannot built a graphics card driver from the UAE C component. That doesn't depend on the SDK. It only depends on the 68K interface part that, more or less, just traps into UAE.


It would be easy to make the traps not go into UAE but whereever you like. You could patch LoadSeg("uaegfx.card") to replace the 0xF0FF60 jumps. So you probably could write a gfx card driver without needing to know ".card" internals, but only things from UAE.