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Author Topic: Australians believe in spooks!  (Read 5147 times)

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Offline FluffyMcDeath

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Re: Australians believe in spooks!
« Reply #14 from previous page: February 25, 2004, 08:59:59 PM »
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iamaboringperson wrote:

No profit = No business
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If I'm trying to sell you something, it is important that I never tell you what I paid for it.
Why is it important?

Sometimes people like to know what it cost the retailer before they buy. FACT.


If people are rational, they will want to get the best price that they can for a given item. (This is why competition is supposed to serve the consumer by bringing down prices). If they know what the cost of the item was in the first place they can have a pretty good idea of their bargaining position and they can refuse to buy for more.

Example:
If you are trying to buy a watch from a guy and he wants $100 for it, and the information you have available is that other sellers are selling the watch for $50, you'll probably try to talk him down, or pass. If you also happen to know that he bought the watch for $5 you are more inclined to try to bargain for a lower figure than $50.

Given the choice between him getting profit and you getting a deal, which is the more important to you?

If you want to get a good price for something that you are selling, you must let the customer get the impression that they are getting a good deal out of you. If they find out how little you paid they will push harder for a better deal.  
 

Offline T_Bone

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Re: Australians believe in spooks!
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2004, 09:00:45 PM »
Quote

FluffyMcDeath wrote:
Quote

T_Bone wrote:

After a time, that lack in profit would correct itself as businesses started making less money, paying less dividends, etc  :-)


Exactly. In a perfectly efficient, no-one makes any profit. Profit only comes from inefficiency, which comes from disrupting information. If I'm trying to sell you something, it is important that I never tell you what I paid for it.


Once you get rid of profit, what ensures efficiency? It's the prospect of profit that forces efficiency. If there's no chance of a profit, why strive for efficiency?
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Offline Fade

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Re: Australians believe in spooks!
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2004, 09:04:54 PM »
Let's do another one.

If
company machine + worker = product

And
Product + 0% profit = good

Then
worker = good

Else
company = greedy
If you\\\'re still voting Democrat, you\\\'re stuck on stupid!
 

Offline FluffyMcDeath

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Re: Australians believe in spooks!
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2004, 09:17:37 PM »
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T_Bone wrote:

Once you get rid of profit, what ensures efficiency? It's the prospect of profit that forces efficiency. If there's no chance of a profit, why strive for efficiency?


All else being equal, you increase profit by increasing efficiency within your organization. However, once the consumers find out that you can now produce for less, they improve their efficiency by making you forgo your profit.

Let's say company A produces raw materials.
Company B produces parts from As materials.
Company C produces product from Bs parts.

Assume that right now no-one makes profit. It's all break even.

Company A finds a way to produce for less. Efficiency of A goes up but the efficiency of the system remains the same. The same amount of end product at C still costs the same.

B finds out that A now has margin and asks for a better deal. Since their costs are now lower B has profit (but A looses margin). C finds out about Bs lowered costs and pushes them to pass it on.

Finally, at the end of the chain, efficiency is increased when C are forced by the consumer to lower their prices.

So long as there is competition and good information flow margins will be razor thin and transient. Overall efficiency will improve.

To prevent this a certain degree of information witholding and even misrepresentation must be entered into. Ther is also collusion between competitors (not necessarilly overt, but competitors keep an eye on each other to get a feel for what they should be bidding.

Other ways of introducing inefficiencies are government regulations and futures trading. One huge inefficiency enforced by government regulation, for example, is patent protection.
 

Offline iamaboringpersonTopic starter

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Re: Australians believe in spooks!
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2004, 09:21:03 PM »
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If you want to get a good price for something that you are selling, you must let the customer get the impression that they are getting a good deal out of you. If they find out how little you paid they will push harder for a better deal.
They might.

But that doesn't mean that the person who is selling is necessarily going to reduce their price as much as you want, and, in fact may not reduce the product at all.

I know of shop owners who buy from other shop owners knowing what the profit margin is. Everybody makes a profit. And nobody is unhappy.

Now, assuming that the buyer haggled the price down to around the sellers cost price. Don't you suppose that assuming the seller actually sells for that price(the alternative being keeping the goods and being out of pocket) that he'd give up?

There would never be a time of no profit. You'd either sell at a gain, or not.

Therefore nobody can be in business at selling with zero, or next to zero profit for long.

That is ineficiency.
 

Offline iamaboringpersonTopic starter

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Re: Australians believe in spooks!
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2004, 09:24:55 PM »
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One huge inefficiency enforced by government regulation, for example, is patent protection.
Removing the protection provided by patents is ineficient, because an inventor can make no profit on an invention that isn't released.

 

Offline T_Bone

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Re: Australians believe in spooks!
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2004, 10:13:47 PM »
Quote

FluffyMcDeath wrote:
Quote

T_Bone wrote:

Once you get rid of profit, what ensures efficiency? It's the prospect of profit that forces efficiency. If there's no chance of a profit, why strive for efficiency?


All else being equal, you increase profit by increasing efficiency within your organization. However, once the consumers find out that you can now produce for less, they improve their efficiency by making you forgo your profit.

Let's say company A produces raw materials.
Company B produces parts from As materials.
Company C produces product from Bs parts.

Assume that right now no-one makes profit. It's all break even.

Company A finds a way to produce for less. Efficiency of A goes up but the efficiency of the system remains the same. The same amount of end product at C still costs the same.

B finds out that A now has margin and asks for a better deal. Since their costs are now lower B has profit (but A looses margin). C finds out about Bs lowered costs and pushes them to pass it on.

Finally, at the end of the chain, efficiency is increased when C are forced by the consumer to lower their prices.

So long as there is competition and good information flow margins will be razor thin and transient. Overall efficiency will improve.

To prevent this a certain degree of information witholding and even misrepresentation must be entered into. Ther is also collusion between competitors (not necessarilly overt, but competitors keep an eye on each other to get a feel for what they should be bidding.

Other ways of introducing inefficiencies are government regulations and futures trading. One huge inefficiency enforced by government regulation, for example, is patent protection.


All that might be plausable except for:
"Company A finds a way to produce for less"

Company A has no R&D, because Company A makes no profit.
Company A, even if it had any money for R&D, knows the return on investment into R&D would be zero, and everyone else knows it too, so they can't even get investors to invest in the company so that it may fund R&D.
Plus, Company A has no reason for R&D, there's no Patent protection, so let "someone else" do the R&D
Company A can only find ways to produce for less... by accident.

Meanwhile, in a parallel universe, where there are no psychic powers...

Company A channels a portion of profits into R&D.
Company A also gets investors to fund R&D
Company A benefits from this R&D to find ways to produce for less... AND benefits from accidental discoveries as well.
Company A is moving and shaking!
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Offline iamaboringpersonTopic starter

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Re: Australians believe in spooks!
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2004, 01:56:35 AM »
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Company A has no R&D, because Company A makes no profit.
I disagree. Company A could always reduce the current wages, or even better, replace their employees with super efficient robots! :lol:




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Company A is moving and shaking!
And billions of dollars of governemt grants aren't required to stimulate the ecconomy! :lol:
 

Offline iamaboringpersonTopic starter

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Re: Australians believe in spooks!
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2004, 05:56:10 PM »
Well... I don't know about you, T_Bone, but I'm off to plough the feilds (to the benefit of the state)! :-P