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Author Topic: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation  (Read 23534 times)

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Offline wawrzon

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2015, 03:14:01 PM »
Quote from: amigakit;787975
I am using an A1200T here and also my X5000.  I am very much wanting to shorten the software gap between them in terms of whenever software technologies can be developed mutually for both.


understandable, but the current situation is a result of very long politic of abandonment towards amiga and there is no sign that it has changed, what concerns whomever has their say about os4. i doubt you can do anything about it, except if you had influence on the os4 development, which i doubt you have. and even if it was so, it appears that os4 had introduced a number of changes which actually enforce incompatibility. so except one wanted desperately to follow their path, which im not sure would be convenient for technical reasons one might rather concentrate on alternatives that to date appear more compatible, more flexible, open and disposable. guess, what im talking about..
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2015, 03:55:49 PM »
Should new FPGA or PPC accelerators become available, I would expect to see software introduced that would take advantage of the increased power.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline amigakit

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2015, 04:04:20 PM »
@wawrzon

I am sure there are ways of developing for both Classic AmigaOS and OS 4.1 mutually in terms of Workbench applications and libraries.  This helps bring the development costs down and gives much needed vital investment back into Classic at the same time.

@Iggy

I have learned recently how costly real software development is, so developing FPGA solutions for Classic is one important step, then paying for software to be written for them is another expensive project. I remain positive though that solutions can be found.
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Offline wawrzon

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2015, 05:58:44 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;787977
Should new FPGA or PPC accelerators become available, I would expect to see software introduced that would take advantage of the increased power.


there is already a number of software available that would take advantage of it, like regular sdl ports.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2015, 06:20:09 PM »
Quote from: amigakit;787978
@wawrzon

I am sure there are ways of developing for both Classic AmigaOS and OS 4.1 mutually in terms of Workbench applications and libraries.  This helps bring the development costs down and gives much needed vital investment back into Classic at the same time.

but as far as i have understood you, you were talking about bringing os3 to the state on pair with os4 in order to enhance common development. you can do that without access to os4 and its sources, but then it would mean reverse engineering and reimplementation, like in case of mui4 for os4. this causes an additional (costly, as you yourself admit) effort, while aros provides already good amiga compatibility while introducing technical features on pair or probably in many cases even better than os4 itself. with aros you can actually maintain libraries for different architectures automatically side by side, without that much hassle about different interfaces, like those used on os4.

dont get me wrong, im not trying to talk you into aros, but i dont understand how and why do you want to handle parallel development on what you call "classics" and os4, if experience with existing efforts in this direction apparently prove problems, jut to name magellan or personal paint.

Quote
I have learned recently how costly real software development is, so developing FPGA solutions for Classic is one important step, then paying for software to be written for them is another expensive project. I remain positive though that solutions can be found.

if you want to develop native applications from the scratch then probably. but if you just port things over, there is already a number of enthusiasts doing it for free and the sake of it. im positive, that as soon as they may lay their hands on fpga hardware, it will boost their interest.

on the other hand i just dont see a possibility to develop huge and complex native software packages for affordable money. people may do it out of own interest, like for instance hd-rec, but i doubt you are able to provide enough funds to commission software you wish for and ensure its maintenance.

again i see here only realistic possibility to motivate people in certain directions, towards simple detailed goals by means like contributing to the bounties.
 

Offline amigakit

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2015, 06:51:10 PM »
@wawrzon

I am looking with one eye on the future too.  The foundations laid now are important enablers for more complex projects later on.

The work that Amiga enthusiasts do in their spare time for little or no money is quite simply remarkable, but relying on the goodwill of these enthusiast developers is not the complete answer as we will be in the same situation in another decade with development ongoing at the same pace.  So a commercial injection of capital is also needed to kickstart the software development process in a structured way.
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Offline broadblues

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2015, 06:56:08 PM »
Quote from: itix;787956
Would it help if I ported OS4emu to Os3? It would not run OS4 native software of course but would make porting OS4 software easier.


This is an interesting concept but what exactly does OS4Emu emulate?

I have wrapper functions for pretty mcuh all the Allocation types stuff, (ie memory, mesageports, hooks etc etc.)

What's making my life a bit hard work at the moment, is the real heavy lifting stuff, Compositing , advanced reaction features, band width limitation that make certain double buffering tecniques trivial on an NG machine but slow on Classic RTG.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2015, 07:23:03 PM »
Quote from: amigakit;787987
The foundations laid now are important enablers for more complex projects later on.
thats what im saying. distributed effort. reachable short range targets. but this makes cooperation necessary. and openness. i dont see that granted, when basing these efforts on os4 attitudes, where everything is locked behind seven seals.

Quote
The work that Amiga enthusiasts do in their spare time for little or no money is quite simply remarkable, but relying on the goodwill of these enthusiast developers is not the complete answer as we will be in the same situation in another decade with development ongoing at the same pace.  So a commercial injection of capital is also needed to kickstart the software development process in a structured way.

yes, we have seen aeon investing insane amounts of money already. and yet where have all these investments led so far? i dont see much coordination nor far reaching concept behind it and not because of a inability or a bad will, but simply because there can not be such a concept, or it would be very difficult to come up with a genuine one, not simply reproducing customary solutions found on other systems. such a far reaching plan would imho involve giving up on anything amiga legacy and therefore would hardly end up with enough interest, as already os4 history proves.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2015, 08:08:05 PM »
The only truly viable way forward is a new modern platform, with a user experience based around what we recognize as Amiga. This means throwing away compatibility with legacy sodtware, but it also means opportunities to reimplement old software concepts in a modern setting. And porting software from other platforms, and getting software support from outside of "amiga land" would also be much easier.
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2015, 08:59:28 PM »
Quote from: kolla;787995
The only truly viable way forward is a new modern platform, with a user experience based around what we recognize as Amiga. This means throwing away compatibility with legacy sodtware, but it also means opportunities to reimplement old software concepts in a modern setting. And porting software from other platforms, and getting software support from outside of "amiga land" would also be much easier.


I actually don't agree with that, because at that point you might as well run OSX, Windows, or Linux and use UAE to keep legacy applications.
I can see "boxing" in legacy apps so they don't prevent future OS' from implementing features that current versions of our OS cannot support.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 09:14:32 PM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2015, 10:49:16 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;787999
I actually don't agree with that, because at that point you might as well run OSX, Windows, or Linux and use UAE to keep legacy applications.

Yes, and this is currently what I do, because nothing Amiga offer me a modern alternative. Sadly, neither OSX, Windows nor other OSes offer me the Amiga experience. OSX offers the MacOS experience in a modern setting, but I want the Amiga experience in a modern setting. Don't you?
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---
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A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
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Offline OlafS3

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2015, 10:57:20 PM »
Quote from: kolla;787995
The only truly viable way forward is a new modern platform, with a user experience based around what we recognize as Amiga. This means throwing away compatibility with legacy sodtware, but it also means opportunities to reimplement old software concepts in a modern setting. And porting software from other platforms, and getting software support from outside of "amiga land" would also be much easier.


that is pretty vague...

ok we have AmigaOS and MorphOS  that aim at the moment to be binary compatible then we have Aros that is source compatible. From first SMP experimenting it is clear that SMP is not possible to integrate without API changes. I do not know how far development is. "Silly SMP" (the experimenting with SMP) is stopped, on ARIX it seems to be still in development.

How compares your ideas with what is available. And if it breaks everything and no software from Amiga compileable to it why not using f.e. Linux?
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2015, 10:58:14 PM »
Quote from: kolla;788005
Yes, and this is currently what I do, because nothing Amiga offer me a modern alternative. Sadly, neither OSX, Windows nor other OSes offer me the Amiga experience. OSX offers the MacOS experience in a modern setting, but I want the Amiga experience in a modern setting. Don't you?


What is the "Amiga experience" for you?
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2015, 11:02:45 PM »
Quote from: amigakit;787987
@wawrzon

I am looking with one eye on the future too.  The foundations laid now are important enablers for more complex projects later on.

The work that Amiga enthusiasts do in their spare time for little or no money is quite simply remarkable, but relying on the goodwill of these enthusiast developers is not the complete answer as we will be in the same situation in another decade with development ongoing at the same pace.  So a commercial injection of capital is also needed to kickstart the software development process in a structured way.


One example is Free Pascal on AROS. There are already versions for MorphOS and Amiga 68k. Only AmigaOS is not supported because lack of developers interested in it. The project makes fantastic progress and is aiming to bring Lazarus (RAD-Environment) to Amiga. If you would directly support it it would bring potentially lots of software to our platforms. It would be a revolution for out platform. What do you think?
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2015, 04:18:05 AM »
Quote from: kolla;788005
Yes, and this is currently what I do, because nothing Amiga offer me a modern alternative. Sadly, neither OSX, Windows nor other OSes offer me the Amiga experience. OSX offers the MacOS experience in a modern setting, but I want the Amiga experience in a modern setting. Don't you?

In a way, I already have it.
Some of us like the changes in MorphOS (Ambient, Reggae, etc.).
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline aGGreSSor

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Re: Hyperion Entertainment: Clarification of Current Situation
« Reply #59 from previous page: April 20, 2015, 05:32:33 AM »
Quote from: OlafS3;788008
One example is Free Pascal on AROS.

Free Pascal strange on Amiga. It doesn't Amiga library sufficiently, useless. HPC was the best and Turbo Pascal 7.0 compatibly. As we will soon see a new version? Never..
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