in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500

[kolla]

And WHDLoad runs fine on Phoenix - but WHDLoad and the games it supports also run fine on any Amiga with a bit of RAM already, none of the old games have any use for an improved 68k CPU.

[ferrellsl]

You mean TG68 core from Tobi, the Minimig core is the chipset, not CPU. The Apollo team is nowhere near anything else but talks when it comes to chipset implimentation, talks about SuperAGA/SAGA when they have not been able to show anything working at all yet.

Matt and Thomas could actually use one of the cores that has been modified to run on the Chameleon.  If my memory serves me correctly, it also has a 68k soft CPU in addition to the classic Amiga chipset.  Or better yet, they can keep using a real classic Amiga or a UAE variant.....problem solved!  Or they could buy a Mining or a Replay board or a Chameleon.  Again, problem solved.   With all the options out there for running classic systems, the arguments they've been posting here are looking very ridiculous.  It's clear they have some personal issue with Gunnar and the technical issues that they keep raising are just smokescreens.

[ferrellsl]

And WHDLoad runs fine on Phoenix - but WHDLoad and the games it supports also run fine on any Amiga with a bit of RAM already, none of the old games have any use for an improved 68k CPU.

The old games and applications may have no use for an improved CPU but some of them will run much too fast, so yes, an updated WHDLoad would be nice to have if you want to run your old software at the intended speed on Gunnar's new FPGA.

[OlafS3]

And WHDLoad runs fine on Phoenix - but WHDLoad and the games it supports also run fine on any Amiga with a bit of RAM already, none of the old games have any use for an improved 68k CPU.

I know that you dislike Gunnar

the people interested in it will buy the cards and then we will see what happens. But no whining if you are not part of it

[kolla]

Funny how anyone who tries to work with Gunnar on this end up having personal issues with him, don't you think? And regarding MacOS, several people have pointed out compatibility issues, but Gunnar says it is all lies. Yet he has yet to prove it by showing MacOS actually running on the core, which should be fairly easy.

I believe this will sort out by itself as people get their hands on the boards and realize how little difference it really makes - you still have a system that needs heaploads of patched, even more old software will not work, you will spend time switching back and forth different accelerators for compatibility, the lack of applications to benefit from Phoenix will be minimal. I kinda suspect that "the enemy" they talk of is Individual Computers.

[guest11527]

Matt and Thomas could actually use one of the cores that has been modified to run on the Chameleon.  If my memory serves me correctly, it also has a 68k soft CPU in addition to the classic Amiga chipset.

No, that would make the whole situation even worse, not better! The point is exactly *not* to segment the platform. How would another core *help* here? Right, not at all, it would make things worse, not better.

Once again, I have absolutely nothing against Gunnar. Why should I? We chat together from time to time, he's doing a great job, and the FPGA project is probably the most sensible project I've seen in years. Just that it doesn't make sense at this point to segment the platform by introducing new incompatibilities. And your answer is to segment it even more, instead of less?

Segmentation of the Amiga market is the single most dominant problem we have here.  

  Or better yet, they can keep using a real classic Amiga or a UAE variant.....problem solved!  Or they could buy a Mining or a Replay board or a Chameleon.  Again, problem solved.

No, another problem created. Thank you - what's so hard to understand here? Any attempt to define a "new platform" is again the license to fail because it again splits the user basis. Even less users... Thank you.

It's clear they have some personal issue with Gunnar and the technical issues that they keep raising are just smokescreens.

No, not all. You just do not understand the argument. It is not technical at all. I am just saying that introducing new instructions without any requirements analysis is a bad move and pretty premature.

[OlafS3]

Yeah, I am the one who brought up Mac emulation, both because it is an excellent compatibility test, and because it is usefull as old MacOS still has plenty of software that is unmatched on AmigaOS.

As of right now though, more pressing issue is that reaction applications in OS3.9 apparently do not run on Phoenix yet, so no Prefs. I am curious if latest workbench.library (which is 020+) works.

The FPU is (or rather, is planned to be) from what I understand, not compatible with existing FPUs, so no benefit for old FPU intensive software like Lightwave 3D, Imagine etc.

No MMU, just talks about some sort of new MMU that Thomas for sure will fix OS support for with his libraries, same Thomas who is highly critical about a lot of the design decissions and who has clearly stated he is not interested in supporting new instrictions. Old software requiring MMU, from debuggers to VMM and whatever, will not work.

No backend support in any compilers, I am curious what plans OlafS3 plans to support the new instructions etc with AROS/m68k when he has no gcc that support it.

Talks about how Phoenix will be so fast that compatibility with existing software is of no concern, which begs the question - why not just use ARM or some other more relevant architecture instead?

Talks about "killer apps" and "modern browsers", yet boards crippled with only 128MB of RAM, a lot of unecessary incompatibility, shunning off OS developers as well as compilator developers.

Talks about "an enemy", whoever that may be.

Lack of openness, lack of documentation and design route that seems totally ad-hoc, and attitudes that have shunned away other developers for years already. All this is main reason why Natami never really happened in the first place.

Conclusion? Gunnar seems hellbent on creating his own dream CPU, which is fine. Less fine is that he also seems hellbent on luring the entire Amiga 68k community into his proprietary trap. Yeah right, good luck with that.

So, I'd love to see more open and colaborative people to do a more usefull and compatible m68k softcore. Which brings me back to - who is this enemy the Apollo team is talking of?

"Enemy" it was a ironic comment, humor is not your strong side obviously. You do not pay anything, you are not even forced to buy anything and yet are whining all the time.

BTW what are you talking about? He promises to make it compatible so people can develop without using those features, nobody is forced to get into the "trap". As i said it is only for a minority of software. This project is the only realistic option to get 68k development again. Good luck with finding a FPGA development team. Are you able to do it? Then do it. If not stop moaning. And who says I plan to support this new commands with Aros 68k? I do not really care. They would be at best useful for certain purposes. As long Gunnar does not break compatibility I do not care. Regarding WHDLoad even on UAE many games become unplayable because of speed, Wing Commander as a example. If you are only interested in the old hardware why even bother with new hardware. Then you are best with a old A500. Nothing beats the old hardware. New hardware is for new software. 128 MB has (as i explained several times already but you repeat it again and again) has to do with the concept of using off-the-shelve hardware. Guess how much custom hardware would cost and I know what you would then say. It is compromise but you seem not to understand it.

[kolla]

And btw, since Thomas is the guy who wrote PhoenixInit which the Phoenix core relies on for running AmigaOS at all, I suspect he may already have a board capable of running the Phoenix core. I know he has stated that he has a Natami developer board too. I would say it well worth to note that a person who has been responsible of updating core components of AmigaOS for a very long period of time, who has been involved in Natami development, who Gunnar himself says will take care of MMU issues in Apollo/Phoenix with his library pack... this same Thomas you claim have personal issues? Oh I don't know, I really just see a guy who keeps calling all critics "liars", but who refuse to disprove the lies, and instead just keeps pushing away those who could actually make his solution profitable for everyone.

[OlafS3]

No, that would make the whole situation even worse, not better! The point is exactly *not* to segment the platform. How would another core *help* here? Right, not at all, it would make things worse, not better.

Once again, I have absolutely nothing against Gunnar. Why should I? We chat together from time to time, he's doing a great job, and the FPGA project is probably the most sensible project I've seen in years. Just that it doesn't make sense at this point to segment the platform by introducing new incompatibilities. And your answer is to segment it even more, instead of less?

Segmentation of the Amiga market is the single most dominant problem we have here.   No, another problem created. Thank you - what's so hard to understand here? Any attempt to define a "new platform" is again the license to fail because it again splits the user basis. Even less users... Thank you.

 

No, not all. You just do not understand the argument. It is not technical at all. I am just saying that introducing new instructions without any requirements analysis is a bad move and pretty premature.

I understand what you write but you are a engineer too (as far as I know) so you understand that engineers have the tendency to overengineer. I myself think the same, concentrate on the important things and then add some things (after knowing what exactly). I do not know how Gunnar defines the requirements but there it is his project so for me the decisive point is does he break compatibility or not. If not it is at least not harmful and as I understand it you have the problems with the way he is adding new instructions but not saying that he breaks with existing software and compilers.

[ferrellsl]

No, that would make the whole situation even worse, not better! The point is exactly *not* to segment the platform. How would another core *help* here? Right, not at all, it would make things worse, not better.

Once again, I have absolutely nothing against Gunnar. Why should I? We chat together from time to time, he's doing a great job, and the FPGA project is probably the most sensible project I've seen in years. Just that it doesn't make sense at this point to segment the platform by introducing new incompatibilities. And your answer is to segment it even more, instead of less?

Segmentation of the Amiga market is the single most dominant problem we have here.   No, another problem created. Thank you - what's so hard to understand here? Any attempt to define a "new platform" is again the license to fail because it again splits the user basis. Even less users... Thank you.

 

No, not all. You just do not understand the argument. It is not technical at all. I am just saying that introducing new instructions without any requirements analysis is a bad move and pretty premature.

Segment the platform?  You're joking right?  You do know that Commodore went bankrupt over 20 years ago so there's no longer a platform or any development for it.  And no market either.

Gunnar isn't defining a new platform.  He's taken an old one and improved upon it and you seem to have a problem with that.  We got that.  Now move along and stop bothering the rest of us who would like to see an improved 68K Amiga.

And for someone who has no technical problem with Gunnar's design, you sure do keep pointing out technical issues with Gunnar's work.  

If you don't like Gunnar's design, then don't use it!  Use a real classic Amiga, UAE, or one of the many other FPGA Amigas.  Or maybe you and Matt should join forces and create a design that beats even Gunnar's work.  According to you both, you guys know better than the rest of what we want or what we should have.

[OlafS3]

And btw, since Thomas is the guy who wrote PhoenixInit which the Phoenix core relies on for running AmigaOS at all, I suspect he may already have a board capable of running the Phoenix core. I know he has stated that he has a Natami developer board too. I would say it well worth to note that a person who has been responsible of updating core components of AmigaOS for a very long period of time, who has been involved in Natami development, who Gunnar himself says will take care of MMU issues in Apollo/Phoenix with his library pack... this same Thomas you claim have personal issues? Oh I don't know, I really just see a guy who keeps calling all critics "liars", but who refuse to disprove the lies, and instead just keeps pushing away those who could actually make his solution profitable for everyone.

What is your problem? On the holy crusade against Gunnar? You do not need to buy it and you do not need to use it.

[OlafS3]

Segment the platform?  You're joking right?  You do know that Commodore went bankrupt over 20 years ago so there's no longer a platform or any development for it.  And no market either.

Gunnar isn't defining a new platform.  He's taken an old one and improved upon it and you seem to have a problem with that.  We got that.  Now move along and stop bothering the rest of us who would like to see an improved 68K Amiga.

And for someone who has no technical problem with Gunnar's design, you sure do keep pointing out technical issues with Gunnar's work.  

If you don't like Gunnar's design, then don't use it!  Use a real classic Amiga, UAE, or one of the many other FPGA Amigas.  Or maybe you and Matt should join forces and create a design that beats even Gunnar's work.  According to you both, you guys know better than the rest of what we want or what we should have.

Thomas has a problem with Gunnar adding commands without exactly defining for what purpose they are needed. For me it is important that existing software works on it. If there are unused commands or not is not interesting to me.

[ferrellsl]

Thomas has a problem with Gunnar adding commands without exactly defining for what purpose they are needed. For me it is important that existing software works on it. If there are unused commands or not is not interesting to me.

You and I are in complete agreement here.  And the old software won't be making calls to the new instructions anyway, so there should be few if any problems.  That's why Gunnar is looking for testers.  And if a developer/programmer wants to take advantage of the new instructions, he can.  Of course Thomas would not use ANY of the new instructions.  He's too worried about segmenting the market and the platform.

And Thomas' call for a requirements analysis is ridiculous.  There were no requirements analyses conducted for the original Amiga.  The original Amiga wasn't driven by any requirements whatsoever.  It was driven by engineers who wanted something better than what was already on the market.  And there's no software demand or market today for Amigas to even conduct an analysis in the first place!  If everything in the world was driven by requirement analyses we'd all be driving Volkswagen Beetles for cars and using an abacus instead of computers!

[kolla]

What is your problem? On the holy crusade against Gunnar? You do not need to buy it and you do not need to use it.

I am not on any crusade against Gunnar, all I did was asking a simple question - will MacOS run under emulation on the Phoenix? That is really a question that can be answered with either "yes" or "no". A whole lot of indicators suggest "no", but Gunnar call those "lies". Promises are worthless in Amigaland, and Natami was a project flooded with promises. And fact is Gunnar has not promised _anything_, but people like you and certain others, keep posting on forums how this and that is promised. I really wish you could stop posting on behalf of people you do not represent. Gunnar has not promised _anything_, and in any case, promises are worthless - only running software has any true value here.

Curious - have you seen AROS running on Phoenix yet?

[ferrellsl]

I am not on any crusade against Gunnar, all I did was asking a simple question - will MacOS run under emulation on the Phoenix? That is really a question that can be answered with either "yes" or "no". A whole lot of indicators suggest "no", but Gunnar call those "lies". Promises are worthless in Amigaland, and Natami was a project flooded with promises. And fact is Gunnar has not promised _anything_, but people like you and certain others, keep posting on forums how this and that is promised. I really wish you could stop posting on behalf of people you do not represent. Gunnar has not promised _anything_, and in any case, promises are worthless - only running software has any true value here.

Curious - have you seen AROS running on Phoenix yet?

Here's an idea.  Be a beta tester and see for yourself if MacOS will run on it or not!

[alphadec]

I have been following this thread since it was started!. But now it looks more like a war zone, so why cant we agree on a way forward.

And from there how do we get a working product, something that a user can buy. ?

And right now I really need new amiga hardware most of the time I spend on restoration on commodore/amiga to get them to work so would be extremely good if we as a community can please agree on a way forward to develop new modern amiga hardware.