NetSurf 3.2 68k released

[utri007]

Chris: Could you explain what framebuffer means in this case? I would also like to know what means "no gui systems"?

[matthey]

Netsurf requirements for RiscOS is 16mb ram and 030 equivalent ARM6 CPU.

I suspect that was an older version of NetSurf but the 68k should have better code density (smaller executable) than ARM processors when optimized (Chris's NetSurf currently isn't optimized). I would recommend 32MB minimum for Chris's NetSurf to be usable in its current state. I would also recommend at least a 68040 for usable speed but a fast 68030+68882 should work. A 68030@50MHz with fast memory is almost as fast as a 68040@25MHz with slow memory for integer performance but lacks the larger caches of the 68040 and the 68882 is a fraction of the performance of the 68040 FPU.

SDL/Framebuffer requires 060 and 64mb ram, so if someone decides continue/help Chris  with native version, it would be possible to use it with 030 hopefully.

I don't know if Chris's native NetSurf could be much faster than Arti's version but you are correct that it uses less memory. Chris's version is more forgiving of installation problems but there are known problems including rendering clearing and font crashing for some users (not reproducible here) which make it less than usable, IMO. Most of Arti's NetSurf versions crash after some time on my real Amigas but not in my AmiKit/WinUAE install.

NetSurf is a bear to compile which keeps me from helping more. Wawa had all kinds of trouble and I am even less of a Unix person (I tried Cinnamon Mint but went back to XP). NovaCoder probably could have done some good but he is leaving the Amiga. It would be nice if Arti tried to help Chris more but Arti is still learning programming and has a different philosophy. Part of the problems with Chris's NetSurf is bugs and lack of support in AmigaOS 3.x compared to AmigaOS 4.x. I talked to someone "important" about porting AmigaOS 4.x Reaction to AmigaOS 3.x and there was some interest but Reaction is highly dependent on the intuition.library and graphics.library. There is a known bug in one of the intuition.library BOOPSI classes (parent classes of Reaction and datatypes classes) which I think I could fix with a patch (intuition.library and graphics.library are in ROM) but newly compiled modules with new support and new ROMs are the proper way to add support. Also, the AmigaOS 3.x intuition.library is an inefficient mess currently as the ancient Green Hill compiler requires stubs for all external functions. Updating AmigaOS 3.x to be more API compatible to AmigaOS 4.x would be a major undertaking and take a considerable amount of work. Users may be disappointed without a level of optimization and integration at least equal to AmigaOS 3.9. Current high end (FPGA based) 68k systems are perpetually delayed and/or have other problems I won't go into. There isn't much motivation to do anything as the Amiga hits new lows and dies more everyday.

[Oldsmobile_Mike]

Chris's version is more forgiving of installation problems but there are known problems including rendering clearing and font crashing for some users (not reproducible here) which make it less than usable, IMO.

NovaCoder probably could have done some good but he is leaving the Amiga.

There isn't much motivation to do anything as the Amiga hits new lows and dies more everyday.

Aww geeze Matt, your post seriously just made me depressed.  You have any good news for us?  

Where's @danbeaver with some witty pun when we need him?  

[OlafS3]

A bug report which just states "it does not work" is not very helpful.

Oh sorry

it was not about downqualifying your work

it cannot work because you use Reaction but Reaction is closed. I have Classact but Classact and Reaction are not identical

[OlafS3]

I suspect that was an older version of NetSurf but the 68k should have better code density (smaller executable) than ARM processors when optimized (Chris's NetSurf currently isn't optimized). I would recommend 32MB minimum for Chris's NetSurf to be usable in its current state. I would also recommend at least a 68040 for usable speed but a fast 68030+68882 should work. A 68030@50MHz with fast memory is almost as fast as a 68040@25MHz with slow memory for integer performance but lacks the larger caches of the 68040 and the 68882 is a fraction of the performance of the 68040 FPU.



I don't know if Chris's native NetSurf could be much faster than Arti's version but you are correct that it uses less memory. Chris's version is more forgiving of installation problems but there are known problems including rendering clearing and font crashing for some users (not reproducible here) which make it less than usable, IMO. Most of Arti's NetSurf versions crash after some time on my real Amigas but not in my AmiKit/WinUAE install.

NetSurf is a bear to compile which keeps me from helping more. Wawa had all kinds of trouble and I am even less of a Unix person (I tried Cinnamon Mint but went back to XP). NovaCoder probably could have done some good but he is leaving the Amiga. It would be nice if Arti tried to help Chris more but Arti is still learning programming and has a different philosophy. Part of the problems with Chris's NetSurf is bugs and lack of support in AmigaOS 3.x compared to AmigaOS 4.x. I talked to someone "important" about porting AmigaOS 4.x Reaction to AmigaOS 3.x and there was some interest but Reaction is highly dependent on the intuition.library and graphics.library. There is a known bug in one of the intuition.library BOOPSI classes (parent classes of Reaction and datatypes classes) which I think I could fix with a patch (intuition.library and graphics.library are in ROM) but newly compiled modules with new support and new ROMs are the proper way to add support. Also, the AmigaOS 3.x intuition.library is an inefficient mess currently as the ancient Green Hill compiler requires stubs for all external functions. Updating AmigaOS 3.x to be more API compatible to AmigaOS 4.x would be a major undertaking and take a considerable amount of work. Users may be disappointed without a level of optimization and integration at least equal to AmigaOS 3.9. Current high end (FPGA based) 68k systems are perpetually delayed and/or have other problems I won't go into. There isn't much motivation to do anything as the Amiga hits new lows and dies more everyday.

We are lucky that you are in good mood today

[Blizz1220]

Well whoever is doing it has my best wishes but
I don't think it will be very practical to use without
future Vampires so maybe wait for hardware that could
handle it and then do the porting.

As far as I've noticed (and I saw a lot of junk , I mean
hardware :roflmao:) fastest 060 is Pentium 1 class CPU so
why bother too much now.

And if all new classic hardware plans fail then there is
always option to just use WinUAE and JIT your way around
a problem , that version I posted works for everything
except youtube for me and is usable , I'm sure other versions
from other authors will be great joy to use too once I get
them to work :laugh1::laugh1::laugh1:

[wawrzon]

A bug report which just states "it does not work" is not very helpful.

chris, it wasnt a bug report, just an observation on his part, he is entiteled to.

you have seen how far we got mostly thanks to mattheys exprtise in testing. except me who wasnt much help none stepped forward. it almost proves that porting stuff from os4 to amiga is actually too much hassle.

[wawrzon]

Chris' version of Netsurf 68k is only native version of NEtsurf for 68k Amigas. It uses official sources meant to be used with desktop systems and it has a proper gui. Problem is that Chris is not "very interested" to support 68k Amigas, it is more like a proof of consept than a actual browser.

All other versions use Framebuffer frontend wich is meant to be used with "no gui" sytems and debugging also they are build to top of SDL.  Thats why Arthur version from Amiga Netsurf is NOT here http://www.netsurf-browser.org/downloads/ and never will. Frambuffer is not meant to be used like that.

so what? could you stop mindlessly repeat stuff about things being "official" or whatever? there is one working browser and another port in an early alpha stage, so whats your problem?

Netsurf requirements for RiscOS is 16mb ram and 030 equvalent ARM6 CPU. SDL/Framebuffer requires 060 and 64mb ram, so if someone decides continue/help Chris with native version, it would be possible to use it with 030 hopefully.

again some buzz words like "native". have you even tried chris version? its considerably slower than the sdl one, and it still doesnt render correctly, far from that. it might catch up, but i doubt, against all claims that have been made a priori, that it will beet it. perhaps simply sdl isnt that slow after all? also, how about you try to help, as far youz can, instead hoping someone else does?

Chris: Could you explain what framebuffer means in this case? I would also like to know what means "no gui systems"?

why are you even arguing if you dont understand it?

[wawrzon]

I suspect that was an older version of NetSurf but the 68k should have better code density (smaller executable) than ARM processors when optimized (Chris's NetSurf currently isn't optimized). I would recommend 32MB minimum for Chris's NetSurf to be usable in its current state. I would also recommend at least a 68040 for usable speed but a fast 68030+68882 should work. A 68030@50MHz with fast memory is almost as fast as a 68040@25MHz with slow memory for integer performance but lacks the larger caches of the 68040 and the 68882 is a fraction of the performance of the 68040 FPU.



I don't know if Chris's native NetSurf could be much faster than Arti's version but you are correct that it uses less memory. Chris's version is more forgiving of installation problems but there are known problems including rendering clearing and font crashing for some users (not reproducible here) which make it less than usable, IMO. Most of Arti's NetSurf versions crash after some time on my real Amigas but not in my AmiKit/WinUAE install.

NetSurf is a bear to compile which keeps me from helping more. Wawa had all kinds of trouble and I am even less of a Unix person (I tried Cinnamon Mint but went back to XP). NovaCoder probably could have done some good but he is leaving the Amiga. It would be nice if Arti tried to help Chris more but Arti is still learning programming and has a different philosophy. Part of the problems with Chris's NetSurf is bugs and lack of support in AmigaOS 3.x compared to AmigaOS 4.x. I talked to someone "important" about porting AmigaOS 4.x Reaction to AmigaOS 3.x and there was some interest but Reaction is highly dependent on the intuition.library and graphics.library. There is a known bug in one of the intuition.library BOOPSI classes (parent classes of Reaction and datatypes classes) which I think I could fix with a patch (intuition.library and graphics.library are in ROM) but newly compiled modules with new support and new ROMs are the proper way to add support. Also, the AmigaOS 3.x intuition.library is an inefficient mess currently as the ancient Green Hill compiler requires stubs for all external functions. Updating AmigaOS 3.x to be more API compatible to AmigaOS 4.x would be a major undertaking and take a considerable amount of work. Users may be disappointed without a level of optimization and integration at least equal to AmigaOS 3.9. Current high end (FPGA based) 68k systems are perpetually delayed and/or have other problems I won't go into. There isn't much motivation to do anything as the Amiga hits new lows and dies more everyday.

sad news that nova is leaving, but cant blame him. id probably be able to compile netsurf, with chris help but at some point ive lost temper. im not very patient person. and netsurf build system is too complicated. on aros you simple do configure and make, its easier to try things out and finally contribute something. i doubt i could have done that with netsurf,so after seing how far arti has got with the sdl version i felt it wasnt worth a hassle and turned to other things.

[Oldsmobile_Mike]

I cannot comment other platforms but if you mean the newest (no-ixemul) version from here:
http://ami-soft.blogspot.de/

"NetSurf 3.3 no-ixemul v5

it runs both stable and fast on Aros Vision (most pages are loaded and shown in 5 seconds prior on same hardware it were 20-30 seconds). Of course I have not tested it on "real hardware". In any case you will need "modern resources" when using "modern software". Some ask for newest OWB (that might be ported to Aros 68k) in comparation Netsurf is lean.

No bueno on either of the versions included in the "NetSurf 3.3 no-ixemul v5" archive, either.  System completely locks up after the "Attempting to load program NetSurf" message.  Mouse pointer unresponsive, hard drive light stays solid lit.  

I guess I just don't understand the point of developing an Amiga web browser that only works on emulated Amiga's?  If only we could get all you talented guys to pitch together on an update to IBrowse, instead!  :lol:

[Thorham]

I would also like to know what means "no gui systems"?

It probably means environments without a GUI such as a Unix variant that doesn't boot into a GUI, or MS-Dos (just an example).

[OlafS3]

No bueno on either of the versions included in the "NetSurf 3.3 no-ixemul v5" archive, either.  System completely locks up after the "Attempting to load program NetSurf" message.  Mouse pointer unresponsive, hard drive light stays solid lit.  

I guess I just don't understand the point of developing an Amiga web browser that only works on emulated Amiga's?  If only we could get all you talented guys to pitch together on an update to IBrowse, instead!  :lol:

If OWB is ported it will not work on "real" Amiga either because of missing RAM. It creates incentive to offer and buy new and better hardware otherwise people discuss why needing more than 64 MB for 68k. Emulated platforms will always be ahead of real hardware but they will create the incentives and the playground for real hardware.

Regarding topic... perhaps you could offer a error log?

[OlafS3]

Aww geeze Matt, your post seriously just made me depressed.  You have any good news for us?  

Where's @danbeaver with some witty pun when we need him?  

Matt had some different views and emotional debates about where a certain project should go to.

Regarding Novacoder sorry to hear that he leaves. I thought he would rethink when new FPGA based solutions become reality. He was one of the few hardcore 68k asm developers left. But life will go on and in opposite to what Matt says or thinks the platform is not dying.

[chris]

Oh sorry

it was not about downqualifying your work

it cannot work because you use Reaction but Reaction is closed. I have Classact but Classact and Reaction are not identical

Reaction is included in OS3.5/3.9.  Oh, I've just realised you're the AROS guy.  That explains it then, fine.

[chris]

I guess I just don't understand the point of developing an Amiga web browser that only works on emulated Amiga's?

Me neither, which is why I was targeting 030+AGA for my version.  Sadly I don't really have the motivation/knowledge to do much more with it, and nobody else is interested (I wouldn't have got as far as I did without Matthey's help though) so it has stalled.  In particular, there's an optimisation bug which really could do with being fixed.

[chris]

sad news that nova is leaving, but cant blame him. id probably be able to compile netsurf, with chris help but at some point ive lost temper. im not very patient person. and netsurf build system is too complicated. on aros you simple do configure and make

It is just "make" with a few parameters, the problem is you have to build quite a few things in the right order and cross-compiling complicates matters.

There are pre-built toolchains for x64 Debian here, which might simplify it a bit: http://ci.netsurf-browser.org/builds/toolchains/ (m68k-unknown-amigaos-18 is the latest one at the moment)

With that in situ the libs should build with "sudo make HOST=m68k-unknown-amigaos install" and NetSurf with "make TARGET=amigaos3"