Layers.library V45 on the aminet

[biggun]

If you read the posts and rantings here,
then one could come to the conclusion :
that for those who actaully  spend time on working on AMIGA software
it will be smart to not publish the software, or it least not to announce it at a forum like this .

[Thorham]

and now you are talking abut the bounty for whole operating system.

A very old OS no less, not to mention the fact that 68020+fast mem can do better than AmigaOS (a new, from scratch, incompatible OS, of course). I wish this whole AmigaOS thing would just go away, but no, we're stuck with it

If you read the posts and rantings here,
then one could come to the conclusion :
that for those who actaully  spend time on working on AMIGA software
it will be smart to not publish the software, or it least not to announce it at a forum like this .

I'd say: 'Don't let the party poopers spoil your day.'

[Minuous]

>there were some successful larger aros bounties (open sourcing poseidon usb stack) and two or three other bigger bounties (dopus magellan and odyssey), all organized by people whom you are arguing against, olaf as example. the bounties were successful because the people in question actually did something instead of bragging and demanding. and remember magellan bounty has not been met. the owners agreed to lesser amount. and now you are talking abut the bounty for whole operating system. it will not be another ten thousand dollar bounty im sure. if it was i might have been interested few years ago when there might have been enough people to support it. anyways if you want to risk money parked on some account for years, go for it and try, but judging by this thread alone there isnt much interest anymore.

I very much doubt they would want >$10000 at this point, considering they have left the Amiga market. I'm not "arguing against" anyone, simply having a discussion, much less "bragging and demanding". So explain what have I bragged about or demanded from anyone? In fact, you are the one demanding that I work on your pet project. At what point in this thread or anywhere else have I ever demanded anyone ever work on one of my programs? I welcome code contributions but I don't go around demanding that everyone else work on my programs. All I've said is that an AmigaOS clone should be like AmigaOS, I don't know why this would even be a controversial point, it's just common sense.

>takes much more time than just posting in forums, which is what people are primarly interested in so why really bother.

Yeah, right, that's all I do, go look on Aminet or my site then before making such stupid statements.

>why fork? you can just contribute the missing classes and mui and reaction programs will work fine side by side like they do on aos, or are you demanding to remove the feature of mui compatibility altogether losing this functionality, because you hate it?

It shouldn't be included in any AmigaOS replacement as it has never been a part of AmigaOS. If people want to download it they can, no one is stopping them.

[OlafS3]

>there were some successful larger aros bounties (open sourcing poseidon usb stack) and two or three other bigger bounties (dopus magellan and odyssey), all organized by people whom you are arguing against, olaf as example. the bounties were successful because the people in question actually did something instead of bragging and demanding. and remember magellan bounty has not been met. the owners agreed to lesser amount. and now you are talking abut the bounty for whole operating system. it will not be another ten thousand dollar bounty im sure. if it was i might have been interested few years ago when there might have been enough people to support it. anyways if you want to risk money parked on some account for years, go for it and try, but judging by this thread alone there isnt much interest anymore.

I very much doubt they would want >$10000 at this point, considering they have left the Amiga market. I'm not "arguing against" anyone, simply having a discussion, much less "bragging and demanding". So explain what have I bragged about or demanded from anyone?

>takes much more time than just posting in forums, which is what people are primarly interested in so why really bother.

Yeah, right, that's all I do, go look on Aminet or my site then before making such stupid statements.

>why fork? you can just contribute the missing classes and mui and reaction programs will work fine side by side like they do on aos, or are you demanding to remove the feature of mui compatibility altogether losing this functionality, because you hate it?

It shouldn't be included in any AmigaOS replacement as it has never been a part of AmigaOS. If people want to download it they can, no one is stopping them.

regarding H&P from last contacts I had Mr. Haage is not interested in anything amiga-related anymore. And if the legal situation around 3.5/3.9 is similar complicated than in other amiga-related products it would be complicated to get it free (including problems with AmigaInc. and propably Hyperion who see themselves as the official successor). And you would propably need approvals of all contributors who are propably partly difficult to find and even if have no source codes anymore. That is what I experienced when I tried to contact former amiga programmers. It is all a long time ago.

And regarding MUI (or in case of Aros Zune), there are much more MUI programs than Reaction programs and Classact works in Aros (propably even Reaction but I have not tested that).

"pretending it's somehow equivalent to the official AmigaOS though."

I have explained it, Aros 68k (if you replace the Desktop) is Amiga, Aros is basically 3.1. API + additional Features/Patches. You do not use the nightly on Aros (they are just for testing) but the distributions. You do not like Aros because the devs prefer MUI to Reaction as GUI toolkit? You can add classact, you can add Triton, you can add BGUI, you can propably add Reaction too. You do not need to reimplement installer because you just copy the file.

Examples of GUI toolkits:
http://www.aros-platform.de/html/gui_toolkit.html

Examples of Raytracers running in it:
http://www.aros-platform.de/html/raytracing.html

partly free available, partly included

I do not understand your aversion to Aros, at least for the 68k version. X86 or ARM are different because you can only include software that is reimplemented/compiled for it and that requires sources that are often not available.

[wawrzon]

A very old OS no less,

yet magellan was just a very old workbench replacement, just a component of an os in comparison and what did that cost? and odyssey? its "just"a mui frontend for webkit. dont get me wrong, i am all for open sourcing whatever amiga, just do not see it happen.

[OlafS3]

A very old OS no less, not to mention the fact that 68020+fast mem can do better than AmigaOS (a new, from scratch, incompatible OS, of course). I wish this whole AmigaOS thing would just go away, but no, we're stuck with it


I'd say: 'Don't let the party poopers spoil your day.'

are we really? Most software already runs on Aros 68k, as long as you do not really need certain patches you do not need it anymore. I have amigaforever installed and only use it for testing anymore. Ah and I use the roms in my internal test distribution in Whdload.

[Thorham]

yet magellan was just a very old workbench replacement, just a component of an os in comparison and what did that cost? and odyssey? its "just"a mui frontend for webkit. dont get me wrong, i am all for open sourcing whatever amiga, just do not see it happen.

Not what I meant. The owners of said software obviously decide what they do and don't do with their property, and I'm not complaining about that. What I am complaining about is that we're stuck with AOS on our 68k Amigas, while something much better is possible, where we're also not tied to AOS anymore (including Aros). I'm specifically not talking about other old software.

are we really?

Yes, Aros is an AOS derivative after all, and it would be nice to be able to get rid of that completely, because 68k can do better than AOS and Aros.

[wawrzon]

>there were some successful larger aros bounties (open sourcing poseidon usb stack) and two or three other bigger bounties (dopus magellan and odyssey), all organized by people whom you are arguing against, olaf as example. the bounties were successful because the people in question actually did something instead of bragging and demanding. and remember magellan bounty has not been met. the owners agreed to lesser amount. and now you are talking abut the bounty for whole operating system. it will not be another ten thousand dollar bounty im sure. if it was i might have been interested few years ago when there might have been enough people to support it. anyways if you want to risk money parked on some account for years, go for it and try, but judging by this thread alone there isnt much interest anymore.

I very much doubt they would want >$10000 at this point, considering they have left the Amiga market. I'm not "arguing against" anyone, simply having a discussion, much less "bragging and demanding". So explain what have I bragged about or demanded from anyone? In fact, you are the one demanding that I work on your pet project. At what point in this thread or anywhere else have I ever demanded anyone ever work on one of my programs? I welcome code contributions but I don't go around demanding that everyone else work on my programs. All I've said is that an AmigaOS clone should be like AmigaOS, I don't know why this would even be a controversial point, it's just common sense.

>takes much more time than just posting in forums, which is what people are primarly interested in so why really bother.

Yeah, right, that's all I do, go look on Aminet or my site then before making such stupid statements.
 went
>why fork? you can just contribute the missing classes and mui and reaction programs will work fine side by side like they do on aos, or are you demanding to remove the feature of mui compatibility altogether losing this functionality, because you hate it?

It shouldn't be included in any AmigaOS replacement as it has never been a part of AmigaOS. If people want to download it they can, no one is stopping them.

then why dont you find out what it really costs? olaf just went and asked. when you have an answer, then we can go talking about concretes. speculations are worthless.

and aros is neither my pet project nor am i demanding you to work on it. i just indicated the available realistic options. i went to support aros because i dont see the possibility that amiga 68k gets much improvements. i dont know your work but im pretty sure that you do your best and i respect that.

[OlafS3]

Not what I meant. The owners of said software obviously decide what they do and don't do with their property, and I'm not complaining about that. What I am complaining about is that we're stuck with AOS on our 68k Amigas, while something much better is possible, where we're also not tied to AOS anymore (including Aros). I'm not specifically not talking about other old software.

What classic hardware do you use? 68020? 68030?

If people would at least help testing and send logs to Toni Wilen there would be a higher chance that Aros 68k (and expecially the Roms) would be improved. If only Wawa does something it is hardly motivating Toni Wilen to do something on it. If something is missing report it or set up a bounty for it, if there is enough interest there is a chance that somebody cares for it. Complaining about the situation is not enough...

Ok I understood you wrong, you do not want anything amiga-related. I think you are on the wrong forum now :-)

[OlafS3]

Not what I meant. The owners of said software obviously decide what they do and don't do with their property, and I'm not complaining about that. What I am complaining about is that we're stuck with AOS on our 68k Amigas, while something much better is possible, where we're also not tied to AOS anymore (including Aros). I'm specifically not talking about other old software.


Yes, Aros is an AOS derivative after all, and it would be nice to be able to get rid of that completely, because 68k can do better than AOS and Aros.

Get rid of anything amiga-related?

I think I read there was Unix on 68k revived, use that. But for me personally it would not make sense, I can use it on X86 already.

You "could" modernize AmigaOS (or any other related OS) but then you risk that no software runs on it anymore. Then you have a kind of BeOS with zero software, what sense would it make? A "proof of concept"?

[wawrzon]

Not what I meant. The owners of said software obviously decide what they do and don't do with their property, and I'm not complaining about that. What I am complaining about is that we're stuck with AOS on our 68k Amigas, while something much better is possible, where we're also not tied to AOS anymore (including Aros). I'm specifically not talking about other old software.


Yes, Aros is an AOS derivative after all, and it would be nice to be able to get rid of that completely, because 68k can do better than AOS and Aros.

im not sure what you are proposing here. as i understand you want to get rid of os and bang the hardware. this is fine as long as all hardware you have is compatible to each other, which in reality is never completely the case. it certainly wasnt on amiga. but the os abstracting the hardware can compensate fr it and this is what we need it for. or do i understand you wrong?

[warpdesign]

It shouldn't be included in any AmigaOS replacement as it has never been a part of AmigaOS. If people want to download it they can, no one is stopping them.

You do not find it legitimate but seems like most developers do since it's used by lots of software still maintained today. In the end, it all comes to what is your target: are you making an OS for people to enjoy? Or are you making an OS for yourself... If you're targetting people you'd better make it easy for people to include the libs needed by most of the apps they are gonna use.. And put aside your own personal thoughts. As if Apple refused to include OpenGL because Tim did not like the lib and thought it wasn't legitimate to include it in Macos..

[modrobert]

No point in it, it's already been reimplemented 3 times over.

Well, I can *definitely* see the point!

The 3 re-implementations are for "NG Enthusiasts" only, while the fourth one (or really, the first one, since Amiga OS was and is the *original*, the only *real* Amiga)



This one is still is of very much interest to:

1) Retro fans using real Amiga HW, or UAE
2) Retro fans using new HW that mimics the real Amiga, like Minimig
3) Fans (not sure it's right to call them "retro" only) that wants to *improve* the real Amiga HW, I'm of course thinking of NatAmi!

None of these has the *slightest* interest in any of the three re-implementations. It's not difficult to understand. They want to use the real Amiga 68k apps in the true way, the real classical Amiga games, demos, etc, and flawless compatibility is the most important thing. There is no alternative to the real Amiga OS then, running in a 68k environment with all the custom chips in place (either in HW or in UAE). "NG Enthusiasts" has a different view, they want to use an Amiga environment in a way that is as close to 2011 level computing as possible; modern Internet apps, playing modern media files, etc. Amiga compatibility is an appreciated bonus, but that's not the main thing. To them, it's mostly a matter of choosing one or more of the re-implementations.

What the Amiga 68k fans might be interested in however, might be a continuation and improvements of Amiga OS (and by that I'm *not* talking about Hyperions OS4, which is yet another re-implementation, and the most immature one even). Especially NatAmi would benefit from this, since they will need an OS that can make the most use of the new features of their board. That's what I call "Amiga OS+" in the picture above in lack of a better word. An evolved version of the real Amiga OS 68k. The NatAmi crew will probably make their own third party add-ons and replacement if they ever get this far with their HW, possibly using some stuff from AROS, and writing some stuff themselves. It will however be completely unofficial of course.

Amiga OS 68k can only be distributed by Hyperion AFAIK thanks to that crappy "agreement" (cough cough (read: robbery)). But not even they can release it as open source, since Amiga Inc still owns it. You think it's a mess? It truly is!

(Edit: Oh BTW, the time of the first MorphOS release is one month too late in the picture, my bad... )

I agree with takemehomegrandma in this case regarding the "first implementation", quote from this forum thread.

[Thorham]

What classic hardware do you use? 68020? 68030?

AGA with 50Mhz 68030.

If people would at least help testing and send logs to Toni Wilen there would be a higher chance that Aros 68k (and expecially the Roms) would be improved.

That sounds perfectly reasonable. Personally I have no problem with using WinUae for testing purposes.

Ok I understood you wrong, you do not want anything amiga-related. I think you are on the wrong forum now :-)

No, I'm talking about AOS, not the hardware. The hardware is great, just the OS isn't.

You "could" modernize AmigaOS (or any other related OS) but then you risk that no software runs on it anymore. Then you have a kind of BeOS with zero software, what sense would it make? A "proof of concept"?

Yeah, I've had it in the back of my mind for years now. Write something new from scratch. Would be great, but there would also be no software to run.

im not sure what you are proposing here. as i understand you want to get rid of os and...

... replace it with something better. Somehow I doubt there's a point, though.

[psxphill]

You "could" modernize AmigaOS (or any other related OS) but then you risk that no software runs on it anymore. Then you have a kind of BeOS with zero software, what sense would it make? A "proof of concept"?

If I were doing it I'd redesign exec with full memory protection and then applications that had problems with it would require compatibility modes. You could start out allocating ram privately and then when it was passed to another component and causes an access violation it would make the memory accessible and mark the original allocation as requiring extra privileges. Kind of like how firewalls on the PC ask you if it's ok to access certain sites.

The work would only need to be done once and files distributed for each application. They could be distributed by a central AmigaOS Update site.
 
 If the application needs access to everything then most applications could also be run inside a virtual machine sandbox.

[LiveForIt]

I agree with takemehomegrandma in this case regarding the "first implementation", quote from this forum thread.

It smells lot of morphos fan boy views.

"Hyperions OS4" its not called that and its direct descendent of AmigaOS4. "most immature", well thats depletable MorphOS does not support the latest Graphics cards, AmigaOS4.1 do, and also AmigaOS4.x has memory protection that does work to find bugs and debug applications and it work. MorphOS allows more misbehaving programs to run. Is that a feature or is it a failure well if you ask me its a failure.

Personalty I see no point in improving AmigaOS3.x, every thing worth improving is already fixed is  already improved in AmigaOS4.1, more important its not random hacks, there is offical set of libraries, if you code to support this libraries your programs will run in future as well, they wont stop because some hobbyist decides they wont to do some thing different.

If there was some thing that should be fixed in AmigaOS3.x I think bring it up level that enable some large file system and hard drives to work, with out having to worry about corrupting your data, be the one thing that I think is a "Must" fix issue, every thing else is not mandatory.

Anyway this debate is pretty mutch irrelevant.

I agree with some comments about AmigaOS4.1 being close source is hinderance in some ways, there are things I like to add or improve, I don't care if did not get dime for it, because if did add this features it be useful to me latter on, when I write my programs or games.

But anyway in most/every case I do not need to modify the OS, to add new features, there are otherways, I can for example create my own set of libraries that complements the originals features, this way don't need to change the OS in any unexpected way, so no programs are going to stop working. This is what MUI is, they did not try to hack Gadtools, they created there own GUI system in system fremdly way, and now MUI has become a offical parts of MorphOS and AmigaOS4.1, well in the case of AmigaOS4.1 you need a key to unlock some its less importent features..

Picasso96 is also extension to graphic.library.