Opinions / Info - AmigaOS 4.x Systems

[vox]

This is completely wrong.

If you run the compositing Boing Ball demo from Hans De Ruiter, you will see the clear performance difference between a RadeonHD 6870 and lower specced cards.  The demo is much smoother and faster.  If you run M.A.C.E full game with FPS in 1920x1080, you can also see the performance difference with RadeonHD 6870.

And A-EON has some software coming out in the next three months that will demonstrate some more of the power of the RadeonHD on AmigaONE X1000 over other AmigaOS 4 hardware.  

Choosing lower specced second hand hardware may not be the best choice soon...

Its perfectly correct as it offers just 2D.

Yes, BoingBall demo is nice, but is just a demo.

Currently, I wish I invested in Peg2, but yet you are to prove me wrong.

As I argue, its not the hardware itself, its the way OS4 use, or better say isn`t using it. Linux with LXDE does proper job on X1000 and I wouldn`t be able to cope with daily tasks if I didn`t have it.

[amigakit]

@Vox

The Boing Ball demo is a good benchmark of the performance of the hardware and the RadeonHD driver.

A-EON has been investing in further graphics software development in the meantime.

Currently, I wish I invested in Peg2, but yet you are to prove me wrong.

Try running the new Odyssey v1.23 web browser for AmigaOS 4.1 that has been released today and play videos in YouTube.  The perfomance difference between a SAM/Pegasos and the more powerful AmigaONE X1000 is very noticeable.

[ddniUK]

Its perfectly correct as it offers just 2D.

Yes, BoingBall demo is nice, but is just a demo.

Currently, I wish I invested in Peg2, but yet you are to prove me wrong.

As I argue, its not the hardware itself, its the way OS4 use, or better say isn`t using it. Linux with LXDE does proper job on X1000 and I wouldn`t be able to cope with daily tasks if I didn`t have it.

Vox, I thought that you swapped your x1000 with djnykk? How on earth can you now have another one to run linux? :hammer:

[Boot_WB]

Well, once OpenGL with shader support is available, then application developers could easily write their own GPU assisted YUV=>RGB conversion code. So, he's correct in that. However, that doesn't mean that 3D is the only way, nor would the appearance of 3D drivers magically improve anything.

Don't nag anyone; we're aware of the situation and the various options to fix it. :razz:

No problem, and thanks for the clarification. Could you elaborate on what other options might be available, or what direction you envisage development in this area going. It's interesting and educational.

Yes, I can watch a DVD on the Sam460 without frame skipping. At least, I didn't notice any skipping last time I tried. No video scaling for now. However, that's not due to driver limitations. I can't remember what the CPU usage was.

So is video playback is currently limited to windowed 1:1 scaling, with no fulll-screen mode?

Overlay/textured-video handles the YUV=>RGB conversion and scaling. That alone helps quite a bit, but its still no match for a hardware decoder.

Indeed, but every little helps when decoding has to be done by the cpu.

BTW, the DVD drive can also have a big effect on DVD playback. There are a lot of poor quality drives out there, or drives that really need a firmware update. My A1-XE G4 stopped being able to play DVDs smoothly after "upgrading" to a new DVD drive. So, if someone else with a Sam460 can't play DVDs smoothly, then their DVD drive would be the prime suspect.

I've noticed that myself - my mac-mini's optical drive is a real PITA, although thankfully mplayer config can be adapted for buffering from varous sources, which helps a bit.

For 704x480 @24fps, you need:
- 30.9 MiB/s when using 32-bit RGBA
- 11.6 MiB/s for the YUV420p pixel format (a possibility with overlay/textured-video)

Based on this GfxBench2D result, a Sam440ep-flex with Radeon HD 6670 can manage:
- 13.52 MiB/s with a CPU-based copy routine
- 90.23 MiB/s if DMA is used via WritePixelArray()/BlitBitMap()

AFAIK, MPlayer and DvPlayer use their own CPU-based copy routine, so the copy bandwidth is killing any chance of smooth playback (NOTE: the CPU needs time to decode the video too). Needless to say, I encourage developers to use WritePixelArray()/BlitBitMap() for transfers to/from VRAM.

By contrast, here are the bandwidth results for the Radeon M9 in a Sam440ep (link):
- 53.45 MiB/s CPU copy
- 90.98 MiB/s WritePixelArray
Clearly the bandwidth is enough for 480p video, especially if overlay is used.

Hans

Indeed, in fact if using YUV & overlay/textured, 720p should be within the bandwidth limitations (other possible bottlenecks aside eg decoding).

Thanks for the detailed answers, and sorry yto the OP for the thread detour

[Iggy]

Indeed, in fact if using YUV & overlay/textured, 720p should be within the bandwidth limitations (other possible bottlenecks aside eg decoding).
 
Thanks for the detailed answers, and sorry yto the OP for the thread detour

It might be pushing it for a SAM460, which is why I'd really like to see a hardware decoder.
These are often incorporated into ARM Socs (seperate from the GPU), but we could add one via PCI or PCI-e.
 
And yes, sorry for the detour.
I myself am a rapib MorphOS user, but that doesn't mean I don't want a Sam460 or X1000. And, as OS4 is the closest OS to MorphOS, obviousaly I keep track of developments in it.

[danbeaver]

Iggy, did you mean "rabid" as in rabies, a neurodegenerative and fatal viral encephalopathy where normal animals become aggressively hostile and attack others?  This WOULD explain some posts by MorphOS users.

[vox]

Vox, I thought that you swapped your x1000 with djnykk? How on earth can you now have another one to run linux? :hammer:

Simply, x1000 is currently at my place for Linux setup. Answer is simple DJ Nick and me are friends and we do live in same city. And I have more time to bother, he likes it finished. There is SAM460ex Linux and AmigaOS 4 under way, waiting for MorphOS.

And AEROS r3.5 on my laptop :hammer:

[vox]

@Vox

The Boing Ball demo is a good benchmark of the performance of the hardware and the RadeonHD driver.

A-EON has been investing in further graphics software development in the meantime.


Try running the new Odyssey v1.23 web browser for AmigaOS 4.1 that has been released today and play videos in YouTube.  The perfomance difference between a SAM/Pegasos and the more powerful AmigaONE X1000 is very noticeable.

Nice. That is MOS port paid by community. When will there be Timberwolf 4 which is *almost* working and is also funded by community?

[ddniUK]

/Sherlock Holmes mode on

So you see my dear Watson, all of the evidence stacks up. Once you have removed the impossible, what remains regardless of how improbable, must be the truth. Therefore, one can only conclude that Vox and djnick are the one and the same person... Elementary!

/Sherlock Holmes mode off

:laughing:

[Iggy]

Iggy, did you mean "rabid" as in rabies, a neurodegenerative and fatal viral encephalopathy where normal animals become aggressively hostile and attack others?  This WOULD explain some posts by MorphOS users.

Of course! I've got hostile and aggressive honed to a skill.
Some of us are polite like Andre, and some like us (like myself) feel the need to go full bore a-hole when offended.
Like I've said before, everyone has to have a hobby.
Mine's proving you can't be a bigger jerk than me.

[vox]

/Sherlock Holmes mode on

So you see my dear Watson, all of the evidence stacks up. Once you have removed the impossible, what remains regardless of how improbable, must be the truth. Therefore, one can only conclude that Vox and djnick are the one and the same person... Elementary!

/Sherlock Holmes mode off

:laughing:

No, we are long term friends. If I had all the skills DJ Nick had, I would not bother with social work at all :-) Is it so hard to believe I can have few computers at home at one time, including two PPC Amigas, an PS3 and a laptop that runs AEROS?

[danbeaver]

Iggy, did you notice the "fatal" part?

[Iggy]

Iggy, did you notice the "fatal" part?

I've decided not to die Dan, it doesn't look good.

[Hans_]

No problem, and thanks for the clarification. Could you elaborate on what other options might be available, or what direction you envisage development in this area going. It's interesting and educational.

Well, they've pretty much all been covered already. Using a HW video decoder (Radeon HD cards have one) would be the best solution, but it's a huge job. Another option would be waiting for Gallium3D to be available, and updating video players to use custom shaders. Next is textured video, which uses the GPU to render YUV bitmaps straight to screen. It essentially does the same job as the Gallium3D option, but is easier to use (no need to set up custom OpenGL shaders). Finally, while Radeon HD cards don't have overlay hardware, it could probably be emulated. However, that would be more complicated than textured video, and be far less flexible.

So is video playback is currently limited to windowed 1:1 scaling, with no fulll-screen mode?

Full screen too, although the video might not completely fill the screen. In the case of a 720p video, it matches a 1280x720 screen perfectly, so it does completely fill the screen.

Hans

[vox]

Full screen too, although the video might not completely fill the screen. In the case of a 720p video, it matches a 1280x720 screen perfectly, so it does completely fill the screen.

Hans

Thanks for very informative answer Hans.

Gallium or hardware decoder, there is no much point in using the big fat and mighty newer cards, if we dont (ab)use their features.  I can add only one instance where current acceleration does help and that is smooth graphics of M.A.C.E, but then again that is a mobile phone style game with kind of pseudo 3D, basically a 2D scroll shooter. For most of titles that have to use Warp3D software emulation, it undermines even not best PA Semi performance.

So current state of affairs isn`t much to celeberate, even you are the man.

Saying that, DJ Nick and me counted we have purchased 3 licenses of RadeonHD driver. You will have further support for your hardwork and it would be good if driver could be shared with MOS and AROS community - many things are backports from their communities nowadays and it will be badly needed once MOS starts supporting SAM460ex.

[takemehomegrandma]

it would be good if driver could be shared with MOS and AROS community - many things are backports from their communities nowadays and it will be badly needed once MOS starts supporting SAM460ex.

I obviously don't speak for the MorphOS team, but to me it seems like the MorphOS team believes that providing HW support, API's and drivers for applications to use, is one of the core functions of an Operating System, and they mostly (with a few exceptions) wants to develop their own drivers, especially the GFX drivers. If/when MorphOS will support the Sam 460, I expect GFX drivers to be there, as they are part of the package, one of the things defining the word "support" when talking about an OS supporting HW. I guess we'll know in due time...