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Author Topic: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?  (Read 41337 times)

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Offline vidarh

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #224 from previous page: July 16, 2013, 11:41:40 PM »
Quote from: Crumb;740962
All linux versions are outdated, they all feel like a 70's OS compared to any AmigaOS flavour


Frankly, while there are still lots of things I love with AmigaOS and miss in Linux, this is a downright ridiculous statement to make. It takes a *huge* amount of tweaks to AmigaOS to get a system that is anywhere near as usable as most modern Linux distro's, and you'll still have huge holes.

Already in '89 or so while using AmigaOS extensively, my system was tweaked beyond recognition to get to the experience I enjoyed, and it was still in most ways substantially inferior to most modern Linux distros.

Invest the same effort in tweaking a Linux distribution now, and you end up with something vastly more polished. And if you like you could end up with something substantially closer to an Amiga experience.

Sure, there are still things modern mainstream OS's lack, or are just "reinventing" now (the parallel between workspaces and increasing use of fullscreen apps to screens for example, is quite amusing and satisfying; and Ubuntu's switch to a global menu bar likewise), but the pale in comparison to the features that are lacking, such as proper memory protection and full support for virtualization (I have a dozen or so lightweight virtual machines running on my home machine) or full fledged package management.

I'd love to be able to use a more Amiga-ish OS as my main OS, but before that can happen, either AROS or AmigaOS would need to take a lot *more* stuff from Unix/Linux, or more Amiga-like features would need to be ported to Linux; there's no way I'd be able to go give up all the things I've come to expect in an OS after using Linux.

(I say *more* stuff would need to be taken from Unix/Linux, because already with the first handful of Fish disks in the 80's we were getting a steady stream of Unix ports)
 

Offline vidarh

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #225 on: July 17, 2013, 12:01:36 AM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;740960
Pretty much the same thing, actually. It IS open source, but they're still tied to legacy stuff for the GUI like X Windows, which goes back to 1984.


That is a rather comical complaint to see on an Amiga forum... It is also inaccurate at best - pretty much no modern X client software is able to run on an X server from 1984, or even from 2000 - there's very little in X of today that has much to do with X of 1984 other than the core protocol.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;740960

 All the things you complain about (i.e. user interface stuff) run in user mode and have to go through that arcane monstrosity to do anything.


That "knowledge" is more than a decade out of date. In this paper from *2001*, Keith Packard on the XFree86 Core Team outlined a redesign of X that introduced the XRENDER extension:
http://keithp.com/~keithp/talks/usenix2001/xrender/

As it happens, the X11 protocol is very simple. The complexity was in implementing the drawing model with good performance, which by 2001 was quite outdated. Incidentally much the same drawing model that AmigaOS provided, where the OS is called to draw primitives like rectangles etc., but with the added cost and complexity of doing it over a socket that could potentially be on the other end of a network and so needed to also carry things like all fonts etc.

XRENDER instead let the client render directly into buffers that is then composited. Combined with two shared memory (supported by virtually all X servers since long before XRENDER) and DRI where the client now pretty much renders directly into buffers that can be composited straight to the display buffer using hardware acceleration. All of the complexity of serializing resources over the socket, and of having the server keep up with whatever support the client would like to have to efficiently render went away.

Post XRENDER, and subsequent rounds of updates, pretty much no Linux + X setups have "gone through" any "arcane monstrosity" to do much of anything - X is largely used to negotiate the options that both client and server supports, and unless the client is ancient (pre 2001 or so), the result will be a much simplified stack. If the client *is* ancient, then the old rendering commands might end up getting used, but we're talking a few hundred KB of code at most to support those commands, and pretty much nobody runs that code (just like not much code targeting AmigaOS uses plain Intuition gadgets any more)

Compared to e.g. Windows, the legacy junk carried around for GUI's on most Linux systems is tiny.

Though X of today is vastly cleaner than "old X", these changes are some of the main drivers behind "Wayland" and "Mir" the two next generation display servers for Linux set to replace X entirely (you can run X on top of them, but most regular users rarely will, as the main toolkits are getting direct supports for them): There's not all that much left of X that is actually needed in a modern system, so creating display servers free of legacy stuff and layering X on top as an optional component has become "easy" and attractive as a way of cleaning up the systems further.
 

Offline haywirepc

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #226 on: July 17, 2013, 12:31:45 AM »
"I'd love to be able to use a more Amiga-ish OS as my main OS, but before that can happen, either AROS or AmigaOS would need to take a lot *more* stuff from Unix/Linux, or more Amiga-like features would need to be ported to Linux; there's no way I'd be able to go give up all the things I've come to expect in an OS after using Linux."

I completely and totally agree. I've had an aros box off and on since you could first install and run icaros desktop. I had such high hopes of switching to it for my daily machine. Though, it gave a nice feeling of "coming home" it was and still is so lacking in apps and things I needed to do I quickly realized I could not use it for anything other than I suppose fun and puttering around with.

Once, I dumped all my old mods, s3ms and xm's  to my aros box and with milky tracker tried to use the aros box to compose music again, but found myself wanting renoise fx and virtual instruments, wanting a decent sample editor and so on. I realized milky tracker was just a 90's era tech. 20+ years of better tools out there.

I could not work on videos, watch youtube videos, do decent graphics work, and so many other things. This is why amiga next gen is failing. Amiga next gen machine is a nice toy to put next to your main computer for fun stuff and nostalgia, but thats it.

Sure you can cripple yourself creatively and still do decent work, but better creative work can be done on osx, linux or windows...

And THAT is why amiga next gen machines are just novelties at this point.

But I still HOPE... :pint:
 

Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #227 on: July 17, 2013, 12:07:23 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;740961
Again, a kernel is not an OS. Linux as an OS is much more than just the kernel. But I agree: basically every problem Linux has is down to being stuck on crufty, monstrous legacy frameworks for its userland. The difference is, it didn't have to be that way. It was created from scratch as a hobby project and opened up to community involvement, not hacked into its present state as a guerilla update to a closed-source OS that was effectively abandoned twenty years ago.
It's the kernel plus some core drivers, commands and utilities. It isn't X-Windows or window managers or GUI toolkits or desktop environments. Those are extras that come bundled with distributions. You can install Linux with no GUI at all.

The decision to use X-Windows wasn't so strange back in 1991, since they were going for something Unix-like and it was an established standard, and it meant that they could run software on Unix servers remotely which was very cool then and is still very cool now. Remember Windows 3.1 came out in '92 and could do none of these things, and wasn't even fully multitasking. X Windows was one of the best GUI systems out there at the time.

The problem with X is not the speed or efficiency. The problem is the protocol transmits only visual, not semantic information. Or in other words, you don't say to the X server "I want a button here" you say "I want a grey box here with some shading and text on it, and tell me when the user clicks on it". Which means the appearance and behaviour is all the responsibility of the software at the other end of the connection. So if you are running some software natively, you can customise its look and feel, but then if you run something remotely it will run according to the settings on the remote machine. What you get is the Window Manager running locally (the X Server end), and the GUI toolkit running at the other end of the connection (the X Client end). So bye bye any hope of visual consistency, and you can forget accessibility (which nobody thought of until years later). X Windows doesn't know anything about what your on screen widgets actually do.

There's another peculiarity of X Windows that is rather limiting, and that is the way you tell it that a window should have a border. It seems almost like a hack, as if Window Managers weren't invented until later, but what you do is you just open your window with the root window as the parent, and then the Window Manager gets informed and it steals it, reparents it and puts the titlebars and whatnot on it. (I know this from my experiments modifying Fluxbox.) This means your application has no control whatsoever over where your window goes. You just have faith that the window manager knows what to do with it. Which isn't usually a problem. But it means it's impossible to do "nested windows" in client areas like Windows NT has. Well, you can make them yourself, and there are toolkits with this capability, but there's no way to get the window manager to manage them.

X has instead different workspaces to keep your windows separate and grouped, so your WM typically just opens every new window on whatever workspace you're currently on. (There is a feature in the protocol to set a window's group ID but it doesn't have any defined purpose or consequences so nobody uses it.) This is a bit like the Amiga's method of using multiple screens, except in X you can't make your own workspace and put your own windows in it. You just get four* of them. And that's it.

*Well you can change that number in your settings. Fluxbox, incidentally, has away to put your windows in  preferred places, which involves identifying your windows by looking them up by title in a supplied list. Ugh.
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Offline psxphill

Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #228 on: July 17, 2013, 01:26:55 PM »
Quote from: vidarh;740938
You can get object oriented shells for Unix-y OS's too. Nobody tends to use them because they are generally way too verbose to be worth it compared to the standard shells, so "better" is definitively debatable.
 
Notice how PowerShell syntax has gradually moved towards the brevity of Unix/Linux shells over time..

It's irrelevant whether they are unpopular on Unix-y OS or whether you think they are also taking features from Unixy shells.
 
To me it sounds like Microsoft are the first to produce a shell that has the best bits from all the different shells out there and are pushing to make it the default shell on windows. How is that not a good thing?
 
Quote from: haywirepc;741008
"I'd love to be able to use a more Amiga-ish OS as my main OS, but before that can happen, either AROS or AmigaOS would need to take a lot *more* stuff from Unix/Linux, or more Amiga-like features would need to be ported to Linux; there's no way I'd be able to go give up all the things I've come to expect in an OS after using Linux."

The irony is that Windows is that OS.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 01:30:28 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline polyp2000

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #229 on: July 17, 2013, 02:36:26 PM »
Quote from: vidarh;740936
So "actually do stuff" == "productive stuff like video editing and music production"? That's a ridiculously limited view. I've made my living for the last 17 years "actually doing stuff" almost exclusively on Linux machines.


Wow - thats pretty impressive stuff , and i thought i had been using it for a long time. What kind of stuff were you doing with linux back then? Linux had only just reached a v1 release. Im guessing you must be a kernel hacker or something .

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #230 on: July 17, 2013, 04:55:35 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741057
The decision to use X-Windows wasn't so strange back in 1991, since they were going for something Unix-like and it was an established standard, and it meant that they could run software on Unix servers remotely which was very cool then and is still very cool now. Remember Windows 3.1 came out in '92 and could do none of these things, and wasn't even fully multitasking.
But Workbench 2.0 came out in 1990, and System 7 came out in 1991. (And if I'm reading up correctly, Linux didn't even get X until XFree86 in 1994, by which time Windows 3.1 was well-established and 95 had been seeing betas released to preview customers since 1993.) There were already well-established lessons in good desktop design in every major corner of the personal-computer market, and known deficiencies of X that you point out yourself, like its presentation-centric model to UI (which had already led to the development of the Motif toolkit as an attempt at standardization.)

People did know better in 1991, or if they didn't they should've. Linux could have chosen to build something better. But they don't believe in that over there, they believe that "worse is better" and crappy designs are fine as long as you get them to a working beta faster. So instead they just reimplemented the flawed system instead of trying to fix the flaws - which basically sums up the whole project.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #231 on: July 17, 2013, 05:12:15 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;741094
People did know better in 1991, or if they didn't they should've. Linux could have chosen to build something better. But they don't believe in that over there, they believe that "worse is better" and crappy designs are fine as long as you get them to a working beta faster. So instead they just reimplemented the flawed system instead of trying to fix the flaws - which basically sums up the whole project.
Well I think back in 1991 and even in 1994, nobody imagined Linux as a desktop operating system for ordinary users as a direct competitor to Windows. It was intended as a Unix-substitute for enthusiasts to run on cheap consumer PCs. Using X Windows meant that existing Unix software could be ported very easily, and Motif goes back to the 1980s.

So yes, Linux could have chosen to put more emphasis on having a nice user experience for computer novices, but then it would have just been competing with Windows and would have met exactly the same fate as BeOS et al, in other words obscurity. It met a niche need, and was able to survive, and only later when it became established did this sort of thing become a concern, by which time there is already a legacy to deal with.

Wayland is long overdue in my opinion but only addresses one half of the problem. In fact, the less important half, the way I see it, they should be integrating the window manager with the toolkit, not the X server with the window manager. Also that should be a very easy thing to do. I might put it down for personal investigation, in fact. A modular toolkit system where you can add new widget types or use custom replacements, and that handles window decorations itself. Wrappers for existing toolkits to go through the new toolkit, then pull the window manager part out of Wayland, and bam, all the settings in one place.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #232 on: July 17, 2013, 05:29:47 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741099
So yes, Linux could have chosen to put more emphasis on having a nice user experience for computer novices, but then it would have just been competing with Windows and would have met exactly the same fate as BeOS et al, in other words obscurity.
Well, first off, usability is not just about novices. A really good interface is a good interface for everybody, from novices to pros. The whole idea that "user-friendly is for newbs" ingrained into the developer culture is half the reason Linux UI sucks so bad today. The Mac didn't make that mistake, and as a result it had pretty much the best UI out there for years. The Amiga didn't make that mistake, and while it wasn't quite as beautifully intuitive as the Mac, it still got a hell of a lot closer than Linux did. Windows didn't make that mistake, and while its UI sucked at first, by Windows 3.0 it actually got pretty decent, and by 95 it set the template for pretty much all future desktop environments in one way or another. Even niche OSes like BeOS don't make that mistake; only the Unices do.

(And as for the idea of competing with Windows being doomed to fail: who cares? I'll take a good failure over a mediocre success any day. See also: Amiga.)

Anyway, you can make the argument that Linux was never intended to be a user-friendly desktop OS. Looking at it I'd be inclined to agree with you. (Certainly it's better as a server OS than it is as a desktop OS.) But if that's the case, they certainly shouldn't have promoted it as one. If that wasn't the intention, then every loudmouth zealot who ever pushed it as a good alternative to Windows is a liar fudging facts for the sake of promoting ideology.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:34:27 PM by commodorejohn »
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Offline apa

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #233 on: July 17, 2013, 06:18:54 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;741100
who ever pushed it as a good alternative to Windows is a liar fudging facts for the sake of promoting ideology.

Oh, yeah right and People who ever pushed Mac and Windows as a good alternative to Linux is  a liar fudging facts for the sake of promoting ideology.

It is a excellent alternative to both Windows and Mac. Every OS has it strong, and less strong points, yes even Windows and Mac. For me, Linux is the natural choice after the Amiga, because it 's FUN to tinker with ,adjustable and not mainstream boring. It's an excellent developer platform.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #234 on: July 17, 2013, 06:37:26 PM »
How is it not "mainstream boring?" It's a million infinitesimally-different Unix clones in addition to the dozen actual, official Unices that already existed. (And the other, non-Linux Unix clones...) In terms of number of similar OSes (as opposed to actual systems in service) it's by far the most mainstream OS in history (especially now that Mac OS is another damn Unix clone.)

It's just that, you know, it's not a very good one.
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Offline apa

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #235 on: July 17, 2013, 07:00:55 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;741106

It's just that, you know, it's not a very good one.

What is it that you don't like with Linux?
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #236 on: July 17, 2013, 07:10:42 PM »
I've detailed it quite thoroughly over the course of this thread. If you want the shortlist of my posts in it, thread search will do ya.
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Offline apa

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #237 on: July 18, 2013, 06:48:49 AM »
One more thing that reminds me of Amiga when using Linux is the philosophy of sharing code, just like the Fred Fish-days.
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #238 on: July 18, 2013, 11:13:11 AM »
Quote from: vidarh;741000
Frankly, while there are still lots of things I love with AmigaOS and miss in Linux, this is a downright ridiculous statement to make. It takes a *huge* amount of tweaks to AmigaOS to get a system that is anywhere near as usable as most modern Linux distro's, and you'll still have huge holes.


Linux with its monolithic kernel seems to be the past. It's nowhere as extensible as AmigaOS was in its first day. Any BSD seems much more evolved and advanced than Linux, at least in extensibility.

The rest of the OS (GNU) is not my cup of tea, starting from the lack of coherence between its parts (core and GUI) and all the heterogeneous and badly integrated apps.

Quote

Already in '89 or so while using AmigaOS extensively, my system was tweaked beyond recognition to get to the experience I enjoyed, and it was still in most ways substantially inferior to most modern Linux distros.


Linux is slow, no matter what you do. Any AmigaOS flavour runs rings in terms of speed.

All the rest of OSes: OSX, Windows, BeOS... are far more integrated, intuitive and usually faster.

Quote

Invest the same effort in tweaking a Linux distribution now, and you end up with something vastly more polished. And if you like you could end up with something substantially closer to an Amiga experience.


AmigaOS flavours are already enjoyable out of the box, these are already fast, no need to waste hours tweaking them like Linux.

Amigans enjoy tweaking their systems but it's not mandatory at all.

Quote

the pale in comparison to the features that are lacking, such as proper memory protection and full support for virtualization (I have a dozen or so lightweight virtual machines running on my home machine) or full fledged package management.


Android apps suddenly die and leave your phone frozen and you have to reboot it. It's funny because Android devices are the perfect example of Linux: these require incredible high amounts of resources to do stuff that would work much better on AmigaOS. And memory protected or not Android apps crash and slow down your phone so much that you have to reboot it. I have to reboot phones with "memory protection" much more often than I have to reboot AmigaOS flavours just for the simple fact that Linux is coded like memory was infinite and never exhausted.

Quote

I'd love to be able to use a more Amiga-ish OS as my main OS, but before that can happen, either AROS or AmigaOS would need to take a lot *more* stuff from Unix/Linux, or more Amiga-like features would need to be ported to Linux; there's no way I'd be able to go give up all the things I've come to expect in an OS after using Linux.


Most of stuff that comes with these OSes that take gigabytes of space is rubbish or are 14 outdated GUIs for a cli tool that got recently updated and crashes and burns.

All in all: when Linux crashes and burns you always end up having to edit weird config files located at random paths, instead of having a GUI emergency boot that boots with basic VGA modes and 640x480 I guess it's much more intuitive for these bearded kernel hackers.

Quote

(I say *more* stuff would need to be taken from Unix/Linux, because already with the first handful of Fish disks in the 80's we were getting a steady stream of Unix ports)


If I wanted to run all that GNU apps I would run them on a unix environment (but a more modern one that use microkernel, not a monolithicly obsolete one like Linux).

Monolithic kernels are so 70s...
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Offline ElPolloDiablTopic starter

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Re: Does Linux have an Amiga feel?
« Reply #239 on: July 18, 2013, 11:37:54 AM »
There is agreement. Linux is the bloated, hard to customise free alternative.

There is one thing, I have never gotten WINE (windows compatibilty) to work. Actually I last downloaded the beta version by accident. Not one of the PC programs I tried worked. Not interested in trying again.

I'm afraid no option is a satisfactory replacement from where OS3.1 left off. There are no paid/full-time programmers to make AmigaOS a lean, snappy, plus optional features, plus modern programs OS. It's a case of 2nd best for the moment.
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