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Author Topic: Would you support this project? -please read-  (Read 20731 times)

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Offline PMC

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #59 from previous page: January 27, 2004, 04:31:23 PM »
Quote
Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking?


As in wouldn't it be great to license the PS2 chipset so we have a ready made competitive GFX / Audio solution that can cope with being connected to both VGA and standard SCART TVs?????

My God man!  You're telepathic!
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Offline Lemmink

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2004, 04:36:29 PM »
Somehow "You must be nuts" isn`t enough to express the thoughts that hit me while reading this. Hey we are 2004 now, not 1994.
You say we need Amigas now.... well how long do you think the design of such a machine would take, my guess is 2-3 Years, if you have a hell of a lot of money to pay enough engineers.

The only thing I want to see (like most of the others) is a custom case.
Despite many hated it back then I think today the case of the Walker could be nice for the MicroA1, especially if you keep in mind that the MicroA1 is designed to work as a Point of sales/Information system.
Not really interesting, but it`s there.
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Offline downix

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2004, 04:54:19 PM »
@Lemmink

The development cycle today is actually better than it was in 1984.  I, being 1 man, working in my spare time, developed a system control chipset incl audio and 3d accelerated video, in 7 years.  That's 1 man, working an average of 10 hours a week and having taken all of last year off from development.

And I have 350 more man-hours till it will be finished, conservative estimate.

Wanna know why?

The migration from schematical entries to hardware description languages combined with the arrival of inexpensive FPGA's that are useful for testing out a design in a real-world situation.  Most of the old development-cycle has been supplanted.  Then add in licensable cores, and the development time is now months.
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Offline samo79

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2004, 04:54:41 PM »
I like this project, but i prefer PPC to the old Coldfire, and an ATI Radeon coprocessor (AAA is too old :-))

An AmigaOne Lite but custom
 

Offline AmiDelfTopic starter

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2004, 05:29:08 PM »
Well, thats an option. To go for PPC, rather than ColdFire..

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Michal, www.amigaworld.org
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Offline Cyberus

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2004, 05:49:20 PM »
Hi,
I think its a great idea in principle, but there are so many insurmountable barriers...
Also, don't forget that, rightly or wrongly, much of the Amiga's success was down to all the games available. Sure it was a great MM machine, but it was the games that shifted all those A500s

When I think of a cool system, with great built in gfx and sound, that can be connected to a TV, is reasonably cheap and has lots and lots of good games to help it sell, I think of one thing....PS2 - Oh, I almost forgot, AND the case looks cool (IMO)

Now if it was some kind of custom solution (maybe a kit? Amiga users tend to be technologically savvy copmared to most computer users) that involved taking the innards
out of the PS2, with an Amiga keyboard, an OS that booted off CD and could be installed to HD etc.
(AFAIK its already possible to run linux on a PS2, why not UAE?)

Now this is a project I would definitely devote time and maybe even money to.....
Or, I could just buy a PS2 and get UAE running on it....  :-)



Anyway, it is a nice idea, and I don't think people are being constructive by completely slagging it off, but I do agree that you have to face up to some hard facts.
I like Amigas
 

Offline Madgun68

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2004, 05:57:27 PM »
Doesn't the Commodore 1 use a standard SVGA chipset plus a "middle man" to control it? Why couldn't something similar be done in this case? Instead of custom designing the chips, you use off the shelf stuff, with logic in the middle that helps mimic the older stuff.
......
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2004, 05:57:59 PM »
Boy, for a thread about an architecture that has no chance for success, there sure are a lot of people jumping on board.  :-)

Quote
1. Getting financial support from Motorola

Why would they be interested?  Hey, Motorola!  Yeah, YOU!  Give us money!

Quote
2. Getting Shiftec to contribute with A4000T alike case

Why such a big case?  Do you plan on putting twelve hard drives in it?  Such a big box for such a puny CPU!  ;-)

Oh, I get it.  You want a massively parallel system!  Let's put 4... no, 8 CPUs in there.  It might actaully best a single, pathetic x86 CPU by then -- if your OS is properly designed, that is.

Quote
3. Talking with those hardware people with NuOS and Oliver

Who are probably the only people writing a unique OS for that processor.

Quote
4. Intergrate some sort of MediatorPCI technology into this, + adding SD-RAM and AGP

Why not go the whole hog and go PCI-X?  AGP is just an accerlerated PCI.

Oh, yeah... nobody makes video cards for PCI-X.  I guess that means we'd have to have a proprietary solution and manufacture it ourselves.

Quote
5. Getting OS support from Hyperion in the end

I'll refrain from commenting on this, since they haven't released their first OS yet.  Of course, please keep in mind how long it's taken to get OS4 on the market.  Or, did you think OS design is as easy, fast, and cheap as hardware design?

Quote
We need Amigas now,.. ! This could work, but then its up to people also. Dont be negative and its not that expensive.

"Now", meaning after this new wonder-chipset has been fully designed, tested, debugged, and goes gold... and by then, fab processes should have shrunken by 2-3 generations and everything would have to be redesigned all over again.

Why not take a Transmeta approach?
 

Offline HopperJF

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2004, 06:23:14 PM »
i'd love it, a Real amiga yeah!
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Offline Wolfe

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2004, 07:05:37 PM »
Going PPC is self defeating.  AmigaOne and Pegasos has been there, done that, unless you are talking something slower and cheaper like a 603 processor.

If you are going to go G3/4 PPC, well those options are already available with more coming.

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Offline AmiDelfTopic starter

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2004, 07:21:41 PM »
The main reason for this project, is to get the Amiga feeling back. Maybe even Eyetech is interested in the end.

I see a splitted community as I've got lots of mails supporting me, and here and also people wich dosent believe in such project and talks about dreaming. Yes, it is a dream, and it is a big dream for most of Amigans, to get the thing we all had before back.

PS2 is a good example on how Amiga could envolve yes.

Come up with ideas and I write them down,.. I also understand those wich thinks this idea is totally waste of time.

There is Amigans out there with knowledge of this things. Oliver, ApexSoftware, ELBOX, ++

A 3D-AGA chip like in PS2 in the new Amiga would boost it. It would give programers time and resources they never get anywhere else. I mean,.. all this new AGP gfx cards allways comes in new shapes. They give programers new standards and this results in more bugs in programs.

I dont say that a GeForce 4 TI 4200 card is bad or something, is just that programers should have the hardware to program for, and be good/better.

I'll give this going to Monday 09.00cet. Then starts working on this project for real. Getting companies interested. It wont be a easy task/job, but I love my Amiga 4000 and I would love to see a new Amiga. I will offcourse support AmigaOne, but its not the "real thing". It misses something... and Amiga Inc' dosent have any Amiga spirit left.

There is no advertising, the OS release is just never going to happend, and if it happends, only Amiga people will know of it.

Its better to try, than just do nothing at all!

Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
I love and respect people which care! And not those with
a heart made of stone.
 

Offline Cyberus

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2004, 08:47:11 PM »
Like I have already said, I support the sentiment 100%

What about all the people who will sit on the sidelines and, just for fun, just say "It'll fail, It'll fail!" These people are common, especially in the UK where I am from, where people seem to LOVE to see others fail.

What about all the trolls, all the self-destructive back-biting that has torn the community apart. They'd love to jump on any idea you might put forward and kill that too...
 
Like I said, I like the idea in principle!
I like Amigas
 

Offline patrik

Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2004, 09:03:33 PM »
@downmix:

I would really like to hear more about your project. It sounds very interesting to say the least.


/Patrik
 

Offline that_punk_guy

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2004, 09:15:17 PM »
I'd like to see this succeed. But it won't.

Now prove me wrong, please. :-)
 

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2004, 09:59:48 PM »
>Amiga 6000 for example:
>AAA+ custom chips

Who will make them? How much will they cost? How poorly/favorably will they compare to current PC chips from ATI or NVidia? If Radeon/Nvidia/Audigy/etc. chips are currently failing to meet your requirements, what needs changed to make you happy?

>3D customable chip

Who will make them? How much will they cost? How poorly/favorably will they compare to current PC chips from ATI/NVidia?If Radeon/Nvidia chips are currently failing to meet your requirements, what needs changed to make you happy?

>ColdFireV4 220MHz
Already slow compared to shipping AmigaOnes or Pegasoses.

>USB 2.0 as standard
>PCI
>AGP
>SD-RAM

I thought you wanted a custom based Amiga?? What does AGP here give you that your AAA+ and custom 3d chip don't?? Considering that now, is there a real need for the AAA+/3d custom chips??

>New 92 keys Amiga keyboard
How much will it cost? Is this really better than just getting Amiga keycaps printed for an existing PC keyboard?


At this point, I'm not really interested in such a custom thing. Why? it'll be a lot more expensive than even AmigaOne or Pegasos are, which already cost more than a PC where the only real difference to you are me is the type of processor being PowerPC instead of x86.

Now, the AmigaOne and Pegasos can both be bought and shipped right now, right? Considering how long we've all waited for a new Amiga, do you really think I'm willing to wait for your custom machine, with a friend of mine being an AmigaOne dealer, and able to sell me one of those a few months ago??

My job is designing programmable system-on-chip microchips, and others with desks nearby here do ASIC chip design for a variety of customers. Having an AAA+ chipset or custom 3d chipset is EXPENSIVE. ATI, NVidia, SIS/VIA/Intel/etc. do it because they sell zillions of the things. If you would limit your chipset to Amiga users, perhaps currently a few thousand, perhaps even 10 thousand, but I'm not sure there are significantly more than that if even that many, selling your motherboard would be outrageously expensive and you'd only sell maybe one or two to only the most wealthy and royally obsessed weirdos here. Commodore got a deal for a while because they owned the chip fab, and they still went bust.

You say people are jumping over to Mac because of their difference. How truely different are they? They have a PowerPC CPU, sure. They have PCI slots, and an AGP slot. They take standard memory sticks. They have ATI Radeon cards, and perhaps some have NVidia cards. They have USB ports, and perhaps Firewire. They don't have custom sound or video chips, they don't require weird non-standard SVGA monitors anymore, so other than the CPU not being x86, where is the special custom difference??

You know, this special different Mac that everyone is jumping for sounds an awful lot like what the AmigaOne and Pegasos offer right now...

It's just hardware at this point. There's no significant difference in what the Macs, AmigaOnes and Pegasos offer in hardware right now. Some have Firewire on board, some would need a PCI card. Some have network on board, some might not. Some take DDR, some take SDR memory, some take G3 or G4, some take G5 CPU. But these differences are small, and the only common special difference from PC hardware is PowerPC compared to x86 CPU.

Now, think about why people might want to change to Mac, is it because they want to escape x86? I don't think many people care about that, as that doesn't really matter for the user experience. What they experience is the software. The OS. The apps. The games. Will AAA+ or custom 3d chip improve this for them compared to the same experience using Radeon or Nvidia chips, or Audigy2 sound? Not without waiting a few years for chip development and some extremely serious price differences.

It's the OS that makes a difference. In the good old days, no one else made hardware that AmigaOS would shine on, and the price situation allowed it to happen for the number of units Commodore shipped at the time. After a while, other chips caught up, and the custom jobs were no longer "special". They allowed the OS to do what it did when nothing else did, but then got very old and pale in comparison to PC chips. The PC chipsets are now quite able to let AmigaOS shine, and let AmigaOS do things better than the now ancient custom chips ever could. And there's no way that a custom chipset only available for Amiga users will even begin to hope to catch up to the current big chip guys like ATI, NVidia, Creative Labs, etc. let alone surpass them. You don't have the hundreds of millions of dollars that they do for development, or the hundreds of millions of customers that they do to pay for it.

At this point, I consider ATI to be the supplier of my "custom" graphics chip. Either Creative Labs or whoever makes the chip on hte M-Audio Revolution card is the supplier for my "custom" sound chip. MAI and Via are the suppliers for my "custom" Gary/Agnus/Buster/etc. chipset. I'm currently content with that, because you can't do much better. Some will argue the MAI one has been done better by Marvell or whatever they're called, and they're fine to do that. But it's already been done... These companies will improve their products much faster than you can start from scratch, catch up and surpass them, and they can do it far far cheaper because they aren't limiting themselves to Amiga users and no one else.

Give me my AmigaOS. I don't much care what the hardware looks like anymore, or who else it may be available to. As long as it can compare to current standards and doesn't cost 10 times a smuch like stuff for my 4000T does, I'll be happy with it. I don't need "custom" chips, nor do you. The software experience is the only difference you'll notice compared to running Windows or Linux or MacOS or AmigaOS, and you don't need any special hardware for these software differences to happen. That's why Mac dumped Nubus and has PCI and AGP now. That's why Dave Haynie was dumping Zorro for PCI. That's why I don't care that my chipsets are available to Mac/PC/embedded systems users. AmigaOS/MorphOS can have already have been made to run on these things, the software experience is pretty much ready for me. Why should I need something much more expensive just to be more different, where the software experience really wouldn't change anyway??
 

Offline sir_inferno

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Re: Would you support this project? -please read-
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2004, 10:17:41 PM »
that's true, a good project, with all the right components, usb good graphics etc, but based on the wrong thing IMO