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Offline Ral-ClanTopic starter

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What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« on: January 20, 2013, 10:08:47 PM »
Hi, in going through my parts bin I found the following Amiga chip:

CSG 318069-17
8375

According to http://www.amigahardware.com, this is an 2MB Agnus chip for an A500/A2000: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=1448

But wait!  I thought the A500 / A2000 could not address 2MB of chip RAM without special 3rd party add-ons!

So is this a typo on the page?  Is this really a 1MB Agnus from the Enhanced Chip Set?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 10:11:07 PM by ral-clan »
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Offline MelbourneBen

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Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2013, 10:14:01 PM »
The A500+ can address 2MB of chip ram without modification, so can the A3000. This chip is probably from one of these machines.
Amiga 500 user
 

Offline Ral-ClanTopic starter

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Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2013, 10:19:24 PM »
Are you sure about the A500+ (plus) being able to access 2MB Chip RAM out of the box?  Wikipedia's entry on that machine says it can only address 1MB.  So does every other site I've found that has info on the A500+.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_500_Plus

Confusingly, Wikipedia's entry for the Agnus chip indicates that the 2MB version of the Agnus was shipped in (the/some) A500+, but Wikipedia's own page on the A500+ states the computer itself could only address 1MB Chip RAM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_Agnus#Chips_by_capability

Such contradictory information!

Wikipedia's entry for the chip I have says the 318069-17 is a 1MB chip for a Rev 6 A500 or A2000, not 2MB like the other page - this conflicts with the info on amigahardware.com, which says it is a 2MB chip, so I am looking for a definitive answer.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 10:36:24 PM by ral-clan »
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Offline Ral-ClanTopic starter

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Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 10:44:14 PM »
I'm a little more confused now.  Wikipedia's entry on the A500 also says:

Quote
The Amiga 500 has a "trapdoor" slot on the underside for an upgrade of 512 kB of RAM. The extra RAM is classified as "fast" RAM, but is sometimes referred to as "slow" RAM since due to the design of the expansion bus it is actually on the chipset bus. Such upgrades usually include a battery-backed real-time clock. All versions of the A500 can have the additional RAM configured as Chip RAM by a simple hardware modification, which involves fitting a later model (8372A) Agnus chip. Likewise, all versions of the A500 can be upgraded to 2 MB Chip RAM by fitting the 8372B Agnus chip and adding additional memory.

Is it really this simple?  The whole reason I started this thread is that I was thinking of installing a DKB MegaChip that I have into my A500 to get 2MB chip RAM, but if the A500 can be upgraded to 2MB CHIP without extra hardware, then I'd rather save the DKB for another Amiga.

I've used Amigas for a couple of decades now and never knew that the A500 could "easily" be upgraded to 2MB Chip RAM this way.
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Offline psxphill

Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 10:54:52 PM »
Quote from: ral-clan;723364
So is this a typo on the page? Is this really a 1MB Agnus from the Enhanced Chip Set?

Yes that page is incorrect, the specific 8375 you have is 1mb. Commodore really caused confusion by marking them as 8375 even though they have different pinouts.
 
http://www.amiga.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-35082.html
 
Internally they are the same, but the 8375 that fit in a rev6 a500 are only 1mb.
 
Quote from: ral-clan;723369
I've used Amigas for a couple of decades now and never knew that the A500 could "easily" be upgraded to 2MB Chip RAM this way.

I'm not sure I'd class it as "easily", first you would need to get an 8372B. They were only fitted to late A3000's. I have no idea why they switched pinout and then switched it back. I'd probably sell the megachip and buy an a500+
 
Here is what you'd need to do:
 
 
"Ok. Heres what is kewl:
According to the service manuals, the A3000 (8372B 318069-03) AGNUS is pin compatable with the rev 6a A500! All of the signals are in the right place. Even the one (pin 41)that controls PAL/NTSC on bootup. According to the information in the Rev 6a a500 schematics, and the A3000 schematics, you should be able to drop an 8372B 318069-03 AGNUS into an A500, add a 74LS139 DEMUX chip to create the 4 separaet CAS signals, add the extra DRAM, and it should work!
 
http://home.earthlink.net/~kjones66/images/Compare.gif
 
SO heres what you do to put 2megs chipram on the motherboard in a rev 6a A500:
First, replace the 8372A agnus with an 8372B 318069-03 AGNUS.
Next, get out your soldering iron and the following materials:
Eight 256k x 4 DRAMs
One 74LS139 demux
Some insulated hookup wire (I use 40ga Kynar)
 
Add A20 Address line:
1)On the back of the motherboard, Hook a wire from pin 35 of the agnus socket to pin 48 of the 68000 scoket.
 
Demux original CAS signals with DRA9:
2)bend up pins 7 and 12 of U35.
3)Take the 74LS139 and bend all the pins out horizontal and clip them to about 2mm (1/8" length).
4)hook a wire from pin 8 of U35 to pin 3 of the 74LS139.
5)hook a wire from pin 13 of U35 to pin 13 of the 74LS139.
6)hook a wire from pin 56 of your AGNUS socket to pins 2 and 14 of the 74LS139.
 
four separate CAS signals:
7)hook a wire from pin 4 of the 74LS139 to the pad on the motherboard where pin 12 of U35 used to be connected.
8)hook a wire from pin 12 of the 74LS139 to the pad on the motherboard where pin 7 of U35 used to be connected.
9)Piggyback 8 more 256k x4 DRAMS on top of the existing 8, bend up pin 17 on all 8 of the added chips. Solder all other pins to the pins on the chips below them.
10.)hook all the pin 17s together on the left 4 (U18,U19,U22, and U23)and also to pin 11 of the 74LS139.
11.)hook all the pin 17s together on the right 4 (U16,U17,U20,and U21) and also to pin 5 of the 74LS139.
 
clock enable:
12.)hook pins 1 and 15 of the 74LS139 to pin 3 of U33.
 
Hot, ground, & mounting the extra IC:
13.)hook pin 8 of the 74LS139 to pin 10 of U35.
14.)hook pin 16 of the 74LS139 to pin 20 of U35.
15.)Use hot-glue or double sided tape to secure the 74LS139 on top of some existing IC..
 
Getting A19, A20, XCLK, and _XCLKEN straight:
16.)Make sure that JP2 and JP5 are set as follows:
http://home.earthlink.net/~kjones66/images/jumpers.JPG
 
DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING and make sure nothing is shorted/grounded etc..
 
NOTES:
Ok.. its possible that DRD9 and CCK might each need about a 10ns additional propogation delay.. I doubt the timing is THAT critical, but I have not built this mod, so I dont know. I will try it as soon as I can get my hands on an A3000 Agnus.
 
Also, these instructions are assuming that you are starting off with a rev. 6a A500 motherboard that has already been fully populated with 1 meg (eight 256k x 4 DRAMs) of Chipram."
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 11:06:56 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline Ral-ClanTopic starter

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Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 11:00:47 PM »
Okay, NOT as easy as it seemed at first (a lot of hardware modifications required).

Probably easier to just install the DKB MegaChip into the A500.

Still, back to this extra Agnes chip I mentioned at the top post. Is it 1MB or 2MB? I'm guessing the former.

The reason I'd like to know for certain is that I'm taking the DKB out of an Amiga (A2000) I'm going to sell, and will need to install a "regular" 1MB Agnes into it before selling so the computer is fully functional - so if this extra Agnus I have is a 1MB version, I will put it in to the A2000 donor board.
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Offline psxphill

Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 11:15:36 PM »
Quote from: ral-clan;723373
The reason I'd like to know for certain is that I'm taking the DKB out of an Amiga (A2000) I'm going to sell, and will need to install a "regular" 1MB Agnes into it before selling so the computer is fully functional - so if this extra Agnus I have is a 1MB version, I will put it in to the A2000 donor board.

8375 318069-16 = 1Mbyte PAL
8375 318069-17 = 1Mbyte NTSC
 
Make sure you use a PLCC extractor
 

Offline giZmo350

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Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2013, 11:20:39 PM »
I installed the Mini Megi Chip (NTSC) Memory Expansion from AmigaKit which STILL only gives non + machines 1.5MB chip ram. I then did the mod to direct the 512KB ram in the trap door to chip which then gave me a full 2MB chip ram. Of course, then you have no fast ram unless you add it internally from an expansion board or from the Zorro II connector, which is why I have an A590.
A500: 2MB Chip, 8MB Fast, IndiECS, MiniMegi, IDE4ZorroII on Z-500, KS1.3/KS3.1, WB3.1&BWB
 
A2000HD: 2MB Chip, 128MB Fast, P5:Blizz 2060@50MHz, PCD-50B/4GBCF, XSurf100, RapidRoad, IndiECS, Matze RTG, MiniMegi, CD-RW, SunRize AD516, WB3.9
 
A1200: 2MB Chip, 64MB Fast, 4GBCF, GVP Typhoon 030 @40MHz w/FPU, Subway USB, EasyNet Ethernet, Indi AGA MKI, FastATA MK-IV, Internal Slim CD/DVD-RW, WB3.5

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Offline Ral-ClanTopic starter

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Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2013, 12:43:09 AM »
Quote from: gizmo350;723375
I installed the Mini Megi Chip (NTSC) Memory Expansion from AmigaKit which STILL only gives non + machines 1.5MB chip ram. I then did the mod to direct the 512KB ram in the trap door to chip which then gave me a full 2MB chip ram. Of course, then you have no fast ram unless you add it internally from an expansion board or from the Zorro II connector, which is why I have an A590.

Oh Crap!  I hadn't thought of that.  I'm so used to operating an A2000, which has 1MB on the motherboard that I never thought about the fact that the A500 only has 512K on the motherboard, and the rest is in the trapdoor slot.

This is what I'm going to put the DKB Megachip into: an A500 ECS modified for WB2.1 ROMs with 512K on the motherboard, 512K in the trapdoor slot and another 2MB RAM on an sidecar hard drive (Supra 500XP).  Total of 3MB RAM.

So, does anyone know if the DKB Mega-Chip can automatically pick out 2MB from all that scattered RAM, or will I need to conduct some motherboard mods to get "see" and use a full 2MB of chip RAM?

Perhaps the "mod" you mention in the quote above is the one that I've already done to get the A500 to use the ECS chipset (this Amiga already "sees" 1MB of ChipRAM with the Fat Agnus)???
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 12:49:36 AM by ral-clan »
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Offline Matt_H

Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2013, 01:16:26 AM »
Here's some of the confusion: ECS != 2MB Chip RAM in all cases. The first ECS Agnuses allowed you to address 1MB of Chip RAM, switch between NTSC and PAL in software, and use ECS video modes (Euro36, Super72, etc.). The ECS screenmodes only work if you also have a Super Denise and Kickstart 2. Have a look at p21 of the Amiga Release 2 Getting Started Manual. DLH has a scan.

So if you have 1MB of Chip RAM in your A500 now, you have a 1MB ECS Agnus and the appropriate motherboard modifications to address the motherboard and trapdoor RAM as a contiguous block of Chip RAM. This was a very common modification back in the day.

The MegaChip doesn't need to "pick out" its RAM. It uses your existing Chip RAM and has 1MB onboard to give you the full 2MB.
 

Offline giZmo350

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Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2013, 01:20:39 AM »
By installing your DKB and doing nothing else you'll get 1.5MB chip ram and with your Supra connected you'll automatically get (assuming no wierd jumpers on the Supra) the 2MB fast ram. You can verify after you fire up WB. But, to get the full 2MB chip you have to do the mod here... http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48733 . So, I have MiniMega and Trap Door expansion (or you can populate the missing ram chips on the motherboard with a slightly different MB mod) and Mod done to get 2MB chip AND A590 to get 2MB fast. I'm not sure if the mod referenced here is the same one you've already done. There used to be a webpage that explained perfectly but it's gone now. A link in the referenced link above has an LHA file on Aminet the you can download (I know, pain in the rump 'cause it's nice to have a Win machine with the old webpage displayed while your doing the mod or a printout). Anyhoo, with any mods done correctly the Miggy know what to do with all the different ram channels.... what an amazing and fun machine!
 
HERE IS THE A500 1MB MB HACK TO ASSIGN ADDED TRAPDOOR FAST RAM TO CHIP RAM! Even after I did the hack and added the minimega with the trapdoor expansion I was confused until I realized I had NO Fast Ram! LOL But remember, a stock A500 has NO Fast Ram! I still run disk based games with just the 2MB Chip without hooking up my A590 alot! Works great!
http://www.amibay.com/showpost.php?p=143097&postcount=37
 
Also see, Tom's Amiga Hack Page
Also, http://www.fantasi.se/amiga.php
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 02:24:23 AM by gizmo350 »
A500: 2MB Chip, 8MB Fast, IndiECS, MiniMegi, IDE4ZorroII on Z-500, KS1.3/KS3.1, WB3.1&BWB
 
A2000HD: 2MB Chip, 128MB Fast, P5:Blizz 2060@50MHz, PCD-50B/4GBCF, XSurf100, RapidRoad, IndiECS, Matze RTG, MiniMegi, CD-RW, SunRize AD516, WB3.9
 
A1200: 2MB Chip, 64MB Fast, 4GBCF, GVP Typhoon 030 @40MHz w/FPU, Subway USB, EasyNet Ethernet, Indi AGA MKI, FastATA MK-IV, Internal Slim CD/DVD-RW, WB3.5

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Offline Ral-ClanTopic starter

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Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2013, 04:01:54 AM »
Quote from: Matt_H;723380
The MegaChip doesn't need to "pick out" its RAM. It uses your existing Chip RAM and has 1MB onboard to give you the full 2MB.

Ah, I thought the MegaChip merely allowed the Fatter Agnus onboard its riser to address more memory on the A500.  I didn't realise it actually had 1MB onboard.  I took a good look at the hi-res photo of the MegaChip on the BBOAH and I can see a Hitachi chip on it labelled "HM514800JP8".

A datasheet search says that this is:

Quote
80ns V(cc): -1 to +7V 50mA 1W 524,288-word x 8-bit dynamic random access memory

I'm assuming that Greek stuff about the word x 8-bit means it is a 1MB RAM chip? I wonder if this 1MB of RAM on the DKB contributes to the 8MB limit the Amiga can address (i.e. I wonder if when using the MegaChip with its 1MB, and with the additional 512K+512K of the A500 and A501, I would have to limit the Supra 500XP to 6MB of RAM to avoid going over the 8MB total).

Perhaps this Mini Medi chip being mentioned doesn't have any on-board RAM like the DKB does?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 04:10:12 AM by ral-clan »
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Offline Matt_H

Re: What type of Agnus chip do I have?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2013, 05:40:07 AM »
I'm pretty sure the design of the MegiChip is functionally identical to the MegaChip- RAM and all.

The 8MB limit only applies to the Zorro II memory space. Chip RAM resides elsewhere, so you're clear for 10MB total.