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AuthorTopic: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)  (Read 26962 times)

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Offline psxphill

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #510 on: March 19, 2013, 11:30:55 PM »
Quote from: FrenchShark;729721
big endian is human's natural order. little endian is computer's natural order.
A xor on the address lines is just your view as a programmer. Where are address lines A0 and A1 when you are dealing with a 32-bit data bus ?

Little endian is no more natural for a computer as big endian. The only difference in hardware is how you calculate the strobes and shifts. 32 bit values on a 32 bit bus are the same whether it's big endian or little endian, it's only when you access bytes or words that anything changes.
 
xor'ing addresses with 3 for bytes and 2 for words just affects how the host CPU generates the strobes and shifts, as most CPUs use byte addresses for everything.
 
In hardware then you will always have to calculate the strobes and shifts from the low bits of the byte addresses and whether you calculate them for big endian or little endian makes no difference in terms of complexity. If you're doing anything extra for big endian then you're doing it wrong.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 11:51:53 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline Karlos

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #511 on: March 19, 2013, 11:47:25 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;729774
Little endian is no more natural for a computer as big endian. The only difference in hardware is how you calculate the strobes and shifts. 32 bit values on a 32 bit bus are the same whether it's big endian or little endian, it's only when you access bytes or words that anything changes.


I dunno, when you stop to think about it, most big-endian processors that support different size operations on register operands tend to do so as if they were little endian. For example, .b and .w operations on 68000 registers always affect the least significant byte and and 16-bit words respectively. Similarly the PowerPC performs byte and halfword operations on the least significant portion of the register. However, when it comes to memory operands (where supported), suddenly it's a different matter.

Conversely, little-endian processors like x86 tend to be consistent in that accessing a byte at a particular address modifies the least significant byte of any wider type considered to exist at that same address, as if that address were just another register.
int p; // A
 

Offline FrenchShark

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #512 on: March 20, 2013, 06:38:32 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;729774
Little endian is no more natural for a computer as big endian. The only difference in hardware is how you calculate the strobes and shifts. 32 bit values on a 32 bit bus are the same whether it's big endian or little endian, it's only when you access bytes or words that anything changes.
 
xor'ing addresses with 3 for bytes and 2 for words just affects how the host CPU generates the strobes and shifts, as most CPUs use byte addresses for everything.
 
In hardware then you will always have to calculate the strobes and shifts from the low bits of the byte addresses and whether you calculate them for big endian or little endian makes no difference in terms of complexity. If you're doing anything extra for big endian then you're doing it wrong.

OK, let's take an example : ADDI.L #$12345678,D0 on a 68000 CPU (16-bit bus).
You need to completely load immediate value $12345678 from memory before you can actually add it to D0.
This won't happen on a little endian CPU because you have the data in the correct order for the carry propagation.

Voila,

Frederic
 

Offline Heiroglyph

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #513 on: March 20, 2013, 02:25:11 PM »
There are cases to be made for either one, that's why both exist.

Earlier Someone brought up voltage tolerance and also fitting 040 boards (or I read it on one of Bill's sites)

Aren't all CPU cards taking advantage of the 060's 5v tolerance?  Since you'll need 5v tolerance anyway and many 060 boards use the 040 bus protocol option, making it fit 040 boards seems like a no-brainer.  With RAM on the FPGA board 3640's could actually be useful.

Also, if there is a stash of thousands of 060's out there (probably 10x more CPU's than users left), why not make a new CPU card with modern components and just go overkill on the FPGA used?

Then you can tinker with the soft core to your hearts content and still get some use out of your dev board.
 

Offline smerf

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #514 on: March 20, 2013, 03:03:33 PM »
Quote from: billt;721600
You're right! My OS4 laptop is way more charming than any of my pc laptops or my iBook is. I'm really happy i can go to dinner with that instead of the others...


Hi,

What speed is your laptop, and who makes it?  (stupid question probably Apple)

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

MorphOS is a MAC done a little better
 

Offline smerf

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #515 on: March 20, 2013, 03:06:49 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;729777
I dunno, when you stop to think about it, most big-endian processors that support different size operations on register operands tend to do so as if they were little endian. For example, .b and .w operations on 68000 registers always affect the least significant byte and and 16-bit words respectively. Similarly the PowerPC performs byte and halfword operations on the least significant portion of the register. However, when it comes to memory operands (where supported), suddenly it's a different matter.

Conversely, little-endian processors like x86 tend to be consistent in that accessing a byte at a particular address modifies the least significant byte of any wider type considered to exist at that same address, as if that address were just another register.


Hi,

@Karlos,

and when my dog bytes me, I scream besides that I say my dog just bit me, but it is ok we were just playing a game.

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

MorphOS is a MAC done a little better
 

Offline JimDrew

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Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #516 on: March 20, 2013, 08:42:31 PM »
Quote from: billt;729755
it seems odd that such a large pile of them are sitting around somewhere when people are having such a terrible time getting them.

Ummm... I don't see that they are even remotely rare.  I found 15 different sources with varying amounts located in Malaysia, Taiwan, and mainland China.

As long as the part works, I would not care if they were knock-offs... but they would definitely have to pass a test rig setup and function well beyond the 50MHz rating.  I was told that these are all genuine parts, with the one supplier a bit desperate to unload all of them.  By the way, the going rate for all of the suppliers I found is about $50 per CPU.  I am not sure how that compares to the normal pricing.  I just so happened to ask one of my part suppliers in China for the latest micro pricing, and the 68060 appeared on the list.  I was kind of shocked to see that, so then I sent an inquiry to a bunch of chip wholesalers about the 68060.  There are a lot of them out their folks!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 08:47:09 PM by JimDrew »
 

Offline yakumo9275

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #517 on: March 20, 2013, 08:54:39 PM »
the 060s are not hard to find, they are just not the last mask revision that everyone wants.
--/\\-[ Stu ]-/\\--
Commodore 128DCR, JiffyDOS, Ultimate 1541 II, uIEC/SD, CBM 1902A  Monitor
 

Offline billt

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #518 on: March 20, 2013, 09:25:57 PM »
Quote from: smerf;729825
Hi,

What speed is your laptop, and who makes it?  (stupid question probably Apple)

smerf

Dell Latitude e6530 i7-3720QM @ 2.60 GHz + 8GB ram and Nvidia NVS-5200M graphics is my own. It's for school (master degree in electrical/computer engineering stuff), as well as my personal cad station for Eagle, Kicad, Xilinx, Altera, etc. for projects like this topic. I'd be interested in AROS in a VM or in a Wubi-alike install on this thing too, but haven' thad time to investigate yet.

Lenovo Thinkpad T530 i5-3320M @ 2.60GHz + 8GB RAM + NVS5400M graphics is my work-supplied one. ASIC EDA terminal into the cloud.

iBook 14inch G4 @ 1.42GHz + 1.5GB ram is not really used, I'm hoping for MOS support at some point. Needs new backlight or LCD panel. The LCD is displaying the picture, but it's completely dark so I can't actually see it. Works great on an external monitor.

And, finally, my most charming of all, the OS4 laptop is, well, unfortunately, nothing more than a bit of sarcasm at the time of my post there. :( Should the mythical netbook or anything bigger/faster ever materialize, I'll buy one.

Anyway, back to topic...
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 09:32:33 PM by billt »
Bill T
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #519 on: March 20, 2013, 10:35:56 PM »
Quote from: JimDrew;729856
I was told that these are all genuine parts, with the one supplier a bit desperate to unload all of them.  By the way, the going rate for all of the suppliers I found is about $50 per CPU.
i think this is about the price i paid for a rev 6 here in germany few years ago. might be mistaken though. anyway sounds reasonable.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:42:25 PM by wawrzon »
 

Offline mikej

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #520 on: March 20, 2013, 11:10:14 PM »
Quote from: JimDrew;729856
Ummm... I don't see that they are even remotely rare.  I found 15 different sources with varying amounts located in Malaysia, Taiwan, and mainland China.

As long as the part works, I would not care if they were knock-offs... but they would definitely have to pass a test rig setup and function well beyond the 50MHz rating.  I was told that these are all genuine parts, with the one supplier a bit desperate to unload all of them.  By the way, the going rate for all of the suppliers I found is about $50 per CPU.  I am not sure how that compares to the normal pricing.  I just so happened to ask one of my part suppliers in China for the latest micro pricing, and the 68060 appeared on the list.  I was kind of shocked to see that, so then I sent an inquiry to a bunch of chip wholesalers about the 68060.  There are a lot of them out their folks!


Jim, they may be the batch I rejected and sent back to them ;)
The going rate appears to be about 45-55 USD.
Once you factor in test cost and yield we may be looking at double that.

I'll be back in Shenzhen around Easter and I'm on a sourcing mission....
/Mike
 

Offline JimDrew

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Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #521 on: March 21, 2013, 05:03:39 PM »
LOL!  Ok, Mike I will look into this a bit more.  If you like, I can give you the contacts to the companies that are in China.... Malaysia and Taiwan are probably a bit out of your way.

How goes the arcade boards?  Anything for developers yet?  :)
 

Offline mikej

Re: Motorola 68060 FPGA replacement module (idea)
« Reply #522 on: March 21, 2013, 09:16:55 PM »
I've got a couple of contacts, more are always welcome... I got one of my guys there to do a bit of digging. There are people who recycle (buy used kit in bulk) and sell 68Ks and other interesting parts. We have failed to get any of the correct mask yet, but I live in hope.

I'll actually be in Taiwan in April and Malaysia in the summer.

They are finishing off the boards now, waiting for the packaging to be printed and delivered.

Slight feature creep on the core, because I have completely rewritten all the SPI protocol, I am now having to rewrite the floppy and hard disk interfaces. Almost done.

I am still quite chuffed with the ability to upload and verify ROM files to internally/external memory now, specified in a .ini file which is quite nice.
[ROMLOAD]
name = mike\kick.rom
addr = 0xE00000
size = 0x4000

etc

/Mike