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Author Topic: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW  (Read 7432 times)

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Offline OlafS3

Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2012, 06:10:27 PM »
No I do not want to say anything bad about it. It is a very good OS for the hardware it is designed for. Propably much better optimized than Aros and with a very good 68k integration. Nothing bad to say about it. But a complete architecture change is not very propable (because of needed resources)
 

phoenixkonsole

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2012, 06:12:11 PM »
see my post.. no transition needed
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2012, 06:19:13 PM »
How do you mean "no transition"? X86 and PPC in one system?
 

Offline Manu

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2012, 06:24:08 PM »


:-D
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current, hardware-intensive solutions. And they\\\'d go faster. --D.Haynie
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2012, 07:03:22 PM »
Sorry takemehomegrandma,
Maybe I am wrapped a little too tight today.
 
I am worried that the MorphOS develoers will take this call for an ISA change to seriously when we've still got more we can do.
If an ISA change does occur I'd rather see it be to ARM as it is a more broadly licensed archetecture (and its not X86).
BUT ARM just isn't powerful enough (yet).
 
And an ISA change is going to take a long time and hopefully the development will occur concurrent with support for our current systems.
 
Currently, three courses are possible. Stay where we are, move to G5, or adopt a new low volume platform.
I'm satisfied with the first, I could see the arguments supporting the second as being the most affordable, and would really like to see the last occur.
 
Why would I want something like the X1000 when it was Powermac support that drew me to MorphOS?
Because I'd like something new, powerful, and compatible.
We can still support what we have, and have a high end option for both bragging rights and the enevitable desire of a few to own the best.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2012, 07:04:51 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;713091
How do you mean "no transition"? X86 and PPC in one system?

Not impossible. A PPC add on card for a PCIe slot running with VM.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

phoenixkonsole

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2012, 07:08:03 PM »
Why should i buy an add on if i can emulate it?
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2012, 07:13:27 PM »
Quote from: phoenixkonsole;713100
Why should i buy an add on if i can emulate it?

You can't emulate a 2.5 GHz quad core PPC with an X86.
That's why.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

phoenixkonsole

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2012, 07:22:56 PM »
OK... until your OS works on such a system I can.
 

Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2012, 07:27:20 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;713083
And, btw, I've been following this really close so if you think I'm taking this too seriously its because if the developer take outside advice too seriously they may make a mistake that costs us the future of the OS.

I'm just aware of a few things you aren't that are going on behind the scenes right now.

You really need to leave this topic alone and let the MorphOS developers decide how to continue forward.


OK, you are in the loop, you know the secret handshake and all that. Good for you.

It's great if the MorphOS developers are thinking about the future. Otherwise there won't be any, rest assured about that. I won't "just happen".

Because whether you like it or not, nobody has been making viable PPC desktop or laptop systems since apple quit doing it more than *half a decade ago*. That changed the entire focus of the PPC architecture. Forever. There is no need for you to "hush" me about this, it's perfectly obvious to everyone with half a brain, and talking about it, or not talking about it, isn't going to change a thing.

Nobody is going to make viable desktops or laptops based on PPC ever again. A-eon spent $400,000 in making a $3,000 system using a dead-end CPU performing like a $150 second hand Mac from 2005. I have a list of the about the 50-70 known owners of that system. 99% of them already had an OS4 system. Acube is making HW in batches of 30 units; they have one product performing like cell phone *two generations ago*, and one product performing like *last generations*. Without all the fancy accelerator controllers for multimedia that cellphone CPU's has, of course. A "cheap" system is still $1,000 including tax etc, and you can't even play a common HD video clip on it. Some OS4 dreamers are looking at various recent PPC chips, with 4-12 cores or whatever, made for routers etc (designed with a totally different scope than desktops) which will make really good (NOT!) sense for a single-core only OS, especially when put on custom motherboards produced in batches of 30 units, costing you your right kidney and your first born. This is all the "future" you can hope for when *not* going "mainstream", hardware wise.

So OK, you were right, you were perfectly "on topic", which is "Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW": No matter how you twist and turn it, you will (at some point, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but inevitably at some point) have to face the two options I mentioned above:

  • Diminish (and eventually die) on current aging/dying Mac HW, or on some kind of custom niche PPC HW made by Acube or A-eon, with less and less users and developers (as long as they even bother making new HW, where is the OS4 netbook BTW?)
  • Take whatever measures needed to move to some mainstream platform that is still advancing. That would probably indeed mean a drastic change to the OS "under the hood", especially regarding the current Amiga compatibility we are enjoying today (it would probably mean a "new" OS, even if it will look and feel the same), but it could also mean a lot of positive things that simply aren't possible today
There aren't any other options! Sure, the current Mac platform is great! I like it a lot, I can't stress that enough! It's cheap, fairly powerful, and good quality. Any Amigan should get one, MorphOS truly is Amiga done right, and it shines on those Mac's. I am looking forward to MorphOS 3.2, and then 3.3, etc, for it. But like it or not, this HW platform can only go in one direction, and that's not forward. A G5 port would perhaps be cool, but it would only delay the inevitable. And neither Acube nor A-eon (or any similar) can provide the answer to the problem.

And hey, that is not *my* fault, it's just the way it is, so don't hit me for merely stating out the obvious, which most people sees clearly anyway!

Now hold on to your hat in that storm, Iggy!

:)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2012, 07:40:33 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;713088
No I do not want to say anything bad about it. It is a very good OS for the hardware it is designed for. Propably much better optimized than Aros and with a very good 68k integration. Nothing bad to say about it. But a complete architecture change is not very propable (because of needed resources)


AFAIK an architecture change could be done fairly quickly if you "lower your standards" (or rather: altering them). This could also open up for "raising your standards" in other areas, by incorporating features not really possible on Amiga otherwise, like true SMP, true MP, true 64-bit, etc. A whole set of new challanges for the OS developers. Those things would probably take time, but I doubt an actual "migration" would be very difficult if you are prepared to start with a clean slate in terms of Amiga backwards compatibility. And you could always do like AROS, and incorporate some transparent UAE.
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2012, 07:43:16 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;713105
OK, you are in the loop, you know the secret handshake and all that. Good for you.
 
It's great if the MorphOS developers are thinking about the future. Otherwise there won't be any, rest assured about that.  
:)

No, I'm not in the loop, I know I few people who have been told more then they should have, and few few others who failed to deny some pretty accurate guesses by Andreas Wolf and myself.
 
Let's just say that, yes, its pretty certain developments are ongoing.
AND that no certain commitments have been made.
 
However, I should refrain from attacking you as I know you support this stuff as much as I do.
 
It is cool that we have a future. All three ng OS' appear to have a future (although the pace of OS4 development is glacial).
 
One thing is certain, until a commitment is made you are not going to hear a peep out of the MorphOS development team.
 
After all, how much warning did we get on eMac support?
Uh, none. I just looked on the web and it was there (before the anticipated Powermac support).
 
So, whatever they do, we're never "in on it".
 
Sorry again about what may have appeared to be flaming.
 
Jim
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2012, 07:47:49 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;713106
AFAIK an architecture change could be done fairly quickly if you "lower your standards" (or rather: altering them). This could also open up for "raising your standards" in other areas, by incorporating features not really possible on Amiga otherwise, like true SMP, true MP, true 64-bit, etc. A whole set of new challanges for the OS developers. Those things would probably take time, but I doubt an actual "migration" would be very difficult if you are prepared to start with a clean slate in terms of Amiga backwards compatibility. And you could always do like AROS, and incorporate some transparent UAE.

I actually wouldn't mind this as a parallel path.
But without the 3.1 API its not MorphOS.
Still, with the Quark kernel, a really tight compact OS is possible.
 
I've used micro-kernel OS' since the mid '80s and that could be pretty cool.
 
On this idea, I wholly support you.
 
I wonder if Ralph would allow Quark to be used in a Open OS?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline som99

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2012, 08:56:31 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;713097
If an ISA change does occur I'd rather see it be to ARM as it is a more broadly licensed archetecture (and its not X86).
BUT ARM just isn't powerful enough (yet).

As do I, tho checking crossplatform benchmarks of CPU/Memory performance a OMAP 4430 @ 1000MHz (2 cores) preforms as a Mac mini 1,42GHz and the Exynos 4412 1600 MHz (4 cores) preforms as the PowerPC G5 (970FX) 2300 MHz (2 cores) and the ARM boards consumes ****loads less power and are small and the G5 power horses wight like 50lb (22KGs).

So they are getting there and fast, a generation or two I can see ARM boards out preforming the PowerPC G5 (970MP) 2500 MHz (4 cores).

Now there are more factors to consider then these tests but overall ARM are not as far behind the top PPC's as one might think in some parts.

Tho im not saying that MorphOS should go ARM, but if they should migrate I would think ARM would be the best bet, and they are not as weak as people might think they are starting to get horse power under the hood and they are still growing and will for a long time and it feels more viable in the long run, besides old Mac hardware there is not much to see in the future of PPC hardware at acceptable price ranges while SoC's will be cheep and easy to get.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Mac mini and MorphOS and I would support them if they stay at PPC, tho I think it's interesting to think about MorphOS and ARM.

Edit: Do not kill me, im just speaking my mind.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 09:02:48 PM by som99 »
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Mainstream HW vs. Custom Niche HW
« Reply #29 from previous page: October 29, 2012, 10:13:03 PM »
I've seen benchmark of the Cortex A15 @ 1.7GHz that give it parity with the G4 (not the G5), so I'm not sure about the benchmarks you're quoting.

But don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the ARM ISA.
And once it moves to 64 bits things are really going to take off.

BTW - I haven't killed anybody lately (that I'll admit to). :lol:
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"