So PowerPC is dead you say?

[runequester]

You obviously failed completely to comprehend my point. I wasn't talking about individual interests, and for the record, I couldn't care less in what you are interested in...

Aren't you just a bundle of sunshine

[AJCopland]

If anything ever finally "kills" the desktop PC, it'll be something akin to this:
http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android

Not necessarily Linux/Ubuntu/etc, I just mean that as phones get powerful enough (and my phone isn't far behind my laptop already!!!) the need for a separate desktop PC is reduced for a lot of people.

It is a bit odd that we've got Atom(x86), MIPS and ARM in mobiles but not PPC though.

[fishy_fiz]

Well that's the thing isnt it... the desktop pc *isnt* in decline, its simply that other devices are now available and becoming mainstream. It may account for a smaller percentage of the market than it once did, but it's no less popular than it's ever been. A hypothetical 20% is still a nice chunk of the market. If the remaining devices (phones/laptops/netbooks/nettops/laptops/other consumer devices/etc.) take up 80% then the desktop computer is more than holding its own.

The sooner all the consumer driven drivel migrates to the fad devices the better in my opinion.

As I already said there's some tasks that are simply impractical on anything but a fully fledged desktop and there's still plenty of room for needing more computational power, even if some people seem to want to believe otherwise.

[Tripitaka]

It is a bit odd that we've got Atom(x86), MIPS and ARM in mobiles but not PPC though.

What's most amusing about this is that a lot of the satellites that power the phone networks do use powerpc. It's a funny ol' world.

[Iggy]

CPU architecture in consoles couldn't be more uninteresting...

But it doesn't matter one bit to anything "Amiga", so I wonder why we are discussing it here...?

I find console architecture VERY interesting as nothing else resembles a Amiga as much in the computing world as a game console.

If you were to build a modern Amiga like system, the parts used in current game consoles would be very useful.

And the Wii U with its Power 7 based multi-core processor, THAT would definitely be on my list for desired components.

[dammy]

What's most amusing about this is that a lot of the satellites that power the phone networks do use powerpc. It's a funny ol' world.

It's not that surprising since it's only significant sales for the PPC are for embedded networking.

[B00tDisk]

If anything ever finally "kills" the desktop PC, it'll be something akin to this:
http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android

The next "gadget" I buy will be an android tablet - an Asus Transformer, actually.  Dual core 1.1ghz Tegra based.  This isn't that far behind my desktop and is leaps and bounds more powerful than the desktop prior.

[commodorejohn]

Desktops account for about 20% of computer sales and has remained relatively flat line at 20% over the past several years.  It's not on it's death bed, but it's certainly nothing what it use to be like either as industry continues to project desktops around 20% while portables (laptop/notebooks/tablets/smartphones) eat up the rest of the 80% of the computer market.

It's problematic to count laptops in with tablets and smartphones, though - with the exception of a few sub-notebooks like the Efika MX and those chintzy $75 things that failed to make waves a year or two ago, the vast majority of laptops are simply PCs in a mobile form factor, whereas tablets and smartphones are (largely, though also not without exception) entirely different animals. It's hard to argue that the PC is dying because more people are buying their PCs in portable form-factors. And as fishy_fiz points out, even if you don't count laptops with PCs, it's not so much that the PC is dying as that the market overall is expanding.

[vox]

Equals to **DEAD** for all purposes interesting to us, which is what people mean when they say that PPC is dead. Nobody is denying that PPC is being used plenty in servers, routers, printers, automotive, etc. But who cares?

Not fully. Playstation 3 had several incarnations of Linux working and can be quite easily expanded to very nice workstation that is quite powerful and even cheap. Having legally MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 in last PPC incarnations would make a great hobby and gaming platform :-)

[takemehomegrandma]

I disagree with your claim of uninteresting. While most console users do not feel the need to care what's inside their gizmos, we have reason to find it an interesting detail. Why? Well, some people say that PowerPC is not developed with desktop computing in mind, and therefore these network router chips are relatively poor as desktop processors compared to Intel and AMD things. As the old term "convergence" gradually comes true, these consoles are going to start doing more desktop like things, and they already have. They now surf the web, play movies, show pictures, do video conferencing.

So long as these console makers continue to choose PowerPC, for whatever reasons they have to do that, PowerPC processors will be pulled toward features and instructions beneficial to these and new tasks that historically may be considered desktop things rather than router or car engine things. As these desktop-alike things filter into PowerPC

"Desktop-alike things filter into PPC"; You are obviously mixing up application with architecture. Of course you can play music and browse the web on PPC based CPU's, that's not the point! And no matter what CPU architecture Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo is going to use in their next generation consoles, there will *never ever again* be a viable desktop market around the PPC architecture! There is absolutely *NO* connection between future *game consoles* and future viable PPC motherboards for Amiga!

our situation, so long as we are unwillingly chained to the PowerPC flagpole, can improve. Doesn't mean it will, as that depends on someone taking such a new PowerPC chip and makign a desktop with it, but at least it's possible.

No it won't happen. I'm *not* saying it's technically impossible to develop a motherboard using obscure PPC CPU's (Aeon and Acube are examples of that), but the key word here is *VIABLE*, and this is where it *fails*, as again both Aeon and Acube are both examples of. Failure is the only possible outcome; there simply isn't any room for the word "viable" in a sentence describing a $3,000+ system of 2007 standards that can't even play 1080p video properly. That's not a way forward to a future, it's an express lane to a casket six feet under ground.

An observation of this happening is the return of Altivec to Frescale's product line. They'd lost interest and dumped it. But enough customers had enough reason to want it back that Freescale had to give in. We potentially benefit from that, as a desktop AmigaOS machine with Altivec is better than one without. As long as consoles and other things want certain features they will much more likely remain core requirements of the PowerPC spec, rather than drift away to optional features or even removed in future spec releases.

Sure, having Altivec is better than not having Altivec, but what has that to do with anything? It surely doesn't change the fact that nobody is building viable PPC desktop motherboards, and nobody will do that ever again! Apple took that market with them when they left!

[bloodline]

The key here is that as the x86 get more power efficient and the ARM gets more powerful, there is going o be increasingly less reason to choose any other architecture... That is why I think of the PPC as "dead", other than IBM (who have no desire or need to use ARM, Intel or AMD intellectual property) the PPC architecture doesn't have much of a long term future.

[takemehomegrandma]

Fair enough, that's the trouble with text communication, it lacks emphasis so is easily misinterpreted. I am forced to regard your comment of "Equals to **DEAD** for all purposes interesting to us" as meaning "Equals to **DEAD** for all purposes of interest to Amiga users".

That's exactly what I meant.

That of course is simply just not true anyway, we have OS4 and MOS both running on PPC. How does that equate to dead?

New PPC CPU's doesn't equal to new viable desktop motherboards, not at all actually. The Apple PPC HW was the last of its kind, nothing has followed and nothing ever will. You can spend the whole day discussing consoles, super computers like "Watson", or Freescale re-introducing Altivec in some router CPU; it won't change the fact that nobody will ever be building a viable desktop motherboard usable by OS4 ever again! This is why it's **DEAD** for all purposes of interest to Amiga users!

[commodorejohn]

And no matter what CPU architecture Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo is going to use in their next generation consoles, there will *never ever again* be a viable desktop market around the PPC architecture! [...] It surely doesn't change the fact that nobody is building viable PPC desktop motherboards, and nobody will do that ever again!

The Apple PPC HW was the last of its kind, nothing has followed and nothing ever will. [...] it won't change the fact that nobody will ever be building a viable desktop motherboard usable by OS4 ever again!

Hey, Nostradamus, while you're declaring the course of the future with absolute certainty, would you mind handing out some stock tips?

There is absolutely *NO* connection between future *game consoles* and future viable PPC motherboards for Amiga!

Isn't there? Hackers have been running homebrew OSes on game consoles since the Dreamcast; why is it that, say, MorphOS Team couldn't use the Wii U as a target platform, if they were so inclined?

[billt]

No it won't happen. I'm *not* saying it's technically impossible to develop a motherboard using obscure PPC CPU's (Aeon and Acube are examples of that), but the key word here is *VIABLE*, and this is where it *fails*, as again both Aeon and Acube are both examples of. /QUOTE]

OK, so it's not dead because it's incapable, it's dead because they don't sell more than some number in your head. I don't know how many either company has sold, or if they've broken even. Since Acube has more than one model, I feel it safe to assume that they felt successful enough to do more than the first model. If a  business feels it is successful in doing something and choose to continue doing similar things, then my opinion is that they do have a viable business model outside if your opinion.

It's too bad that none of our Amiga-alike platforms can be a viable thing to you. It's sad that MorphOS is such a failure to be on such old Mac laptops instead of shiny new ones, or on shiny new anything that I know of. And sad that AROS is not viable because it runs on shiny new PCs. And sad that OS4 is not viable because they seem to have a successful business selling brand new but weird boards.

[takemehomegrandma]

I find console architecture VERY interesting as nothing else resembles a Amiga as much in the computing world as a game console.

If you were to build a modern Amiga like system, the parts used in current game consoles would be very useful.

Not fully. Playstation 3 had several incarnations of Linux working and can be quite easily expanded to very nice workstation that is quite powerful and even cheap.

The Cell CPU really sucks as a desktop CPU, it always did, even when it was new (and since then Sony even killed the option of installing Linux). It's a completely different design philosophy, not suitable for general desktop use. None of the other console CPU's makes sense either, there are much, much better options.

And the Wii U with its Power 7 based multi-core processor, THAT would definitely be on my list for desired components.

Don't make it sound like it will be using a Power 7 CPU, not even the Nintendo marketing hype try to suggest that (they say things more in line with "share some characteristics", which can mean just about anything, and very likely something quite far away from "Power 7 based").

But yes, by all means, please go ahead and approach IBM with a request to buy that CPU that will be custom built exclusively for Nintendo, for use in a new desktop Amiga motherboard. Or the custom made PPC chip they did for the Microsoft's Xbox 360. Then please report back here what their response was. I think I know what the answer will be (most likely a two letter word beginning with N and ending with O, followed by several other two-letter words in a row, each beginning with H and ending with A).

Then build your custom design desktop motherboard using it. If you start now, and put in half a million in cash, you might have a product ready in three years or so (read: yet another computer generation has passed). After that, maybe Amigakit can collect pre-orders here on amiga.org, so you can start producing it in batches of 50 units. Heck, chances are that even the A1X1K will be competitive in price.

Is this really your view of a viable, sustainable future for the platform? If "no", then why are we discussing console CPU's as if they had any relevance for Amiga's future?

[Digiman]

If they are abandoning the PPC/Cell combo, and I'd bet they are, it's because their partners pulled out of Cell development. So they're faced with either:
1) paying for a new CPU to be developed,
2) paying for further development of the Cell and marrying it to either a newer PPC core or another ISA,
3) or they can take an off the shelf CPU/Mobo/GPU and come within a few percentage either side of their competitors whilst saving a HUGE (billions dollars) amount of money.

I think they've chosen route #3 because finally someone slightly less insane is at the helm at Sony.

Nothing to do with ease/difficulty of Cell software development or anything either, I think it's purely a logical choice based on monetary needs.

Andy

Trouble is if Xenon and CELL CPUsaren't used in their future replacements then backwards compatibility will costly via 100% software emulation of PS3 and Xbox360.

For the record Power7 is massively capable but priced as a high end server CPU. As others have said IBM sold the consumer computer division to Lenovo.

It was all tongue in cheek. If you really do want a fast 3.2ghz PPC CPU get IBM to sell you a batch of Xenon CPUs :crazy: