X1000 benchmarks

[itix]

There's absolutely no way you can compete with "costs nothing" running on commodity hardware that's faster than anything the combined purples can come up with.

Is X1000 sold at 3000$ your strategy to compete against AROS? :-)

This X1000 project has big "dead end" written in the wall. The computer built in 2012 and sold at $3000 is only marginally better than used Macs from yesteryears. The platform has stagnated. This is the final stop. Last passengers will be served and then it is over.

It is time to admit PPC is finished. And when you have done that start enjoying old Macs, old Amigas, old/new AmigaOnes, SAMs, or whatever, again. The train is still here. There just aren't tracks anymore.

The traditional "blue" argument against it used to be that AROS is woefully far behind, but that's simply not true any more. In fact, it's OS4 and MOS that are lagging behind AROS in some areas now (3D springs to mind immediately).

Hmm... I think you are confused. MorphOS never had problem with AROS and they have shared their work in the past. It is just that AROS not having binary compatibility and not so developed it has been dismissed by both MorphOS and OS4 users.

AROS is a research operating system interesting in its own way.

[itix]

I'm also not convinced we've really seen what the hardware is capable of yet. We know that OS4 certainly isn't making the most of it right now, being restricted to 32-bit operation on a single core. Even 64-bit PPC linux will have limitations if you use a modern graphics card with it as you are unlikely to get a vendor-supplied driver for PPC (unlike OSX) and will have to rely on whatever open source alternatives there are.

Luckily OS4 don't have to rely on whatever open source alternatives there are

[HenryCase]

It is just that AROS not having binary compatibility and not so developed it has been dismissed by both MorphOS and OS4 users.

AROS is a research operating system interesting in its own way.

I'm glad you think AROS is interesting in its own way, but this 'binary compatibility' issue that is a common complaint should really be examined more deeply.

All three modern Amiga-like platforms rely on emulation for 68k Amiga software, when they don't run on 68k CPUs (i.e. excluding 68k AROS). The only thing is that the emulation in AROS is different from the emulation in OS4 and MorphOS. The main differences are:

1. OS4 and MorphOS have a JIT for 68k software, whereas AROS doesn't yet.
2. OS4 and MorphOS don't have to swap the byte order of 68k code, whereas AROS does (not including AROS PPC and AROS 68k).

That's it. A JIT is a feature I concede is very nice to have, but it's the second issue I mention that I think is the cause of the confusion. Not swapping byte order != binary compatibility. What OS4 and MorphOS have is faster emulation, not no emulation.

Hope we can move beyond this 'binary compatibility' fallacy, and see the platforms as they really are. Thanks for reading.

[itix]

All three modern Amiga-like platforms rely on emulation for 68k Amiga software, when they don't run on 68k CPUs (i.e. excluding 68k AROS). The only thing is that the emulation in AROS is different from the emulation in OS4 and MorphOS. The main differences are:

Sorry, I didn't know AROS was binary compatible with 68k software, I havent looked at aros-exec nor developer mailing list for a while. Is there a distro I could try in Virtual PC? I'd love to try some 68k software for benchmarking purposes. SysSpeed, P96Speed, AIBB...

There is also some 68k software I can't run on MorphOS but perhaps it works better in AROS.

1. OS4 and MorphOS have a JIT for 68k software, whereas AROS doesn't yet.
2. OS4 and MorphOS don't have to swap the byte order of 68k code, whereas AROS does (not including AROS PPC and AROS 68k).

I don't think swapping byte order is relevant (see Amithlon). Just like JIT is not so relevant anymore when you have got 1GHz+ speeds.

(Though, admittely, not having 68k binary compatibility was greater disadvantage in last decade than it is now...)

[HenryCase]

Sorry, I didn't know AROS was binary compatible with 68k software, I havent looked at aros-exec nor developer mailing list for a while. Is there a distro I could try in Virtual PC? I'd love to try some 68k software for benchmarking purposes. SysSpeed, P96Speed, AIBB...

Fair enough.

In that case, you've got a few options. If you'd like to try an x86 AROS distro, then Icaros is probably the best place to start. Of course running it in a virtual machine will always incur a speed penalty compared to running it natively, but I appreciate virtual machines are useful when you want to give a new OS a try with minimal fuss. Worth noting that you can run AROS from the CD/DVD without needing to install it (though again this offers slower performance than native). You can download Icaros from here:
http://www.icarosdesktop.org/

There are some nice features coming up for AROS that help with using it as a day to day system, for example this week we got the first public release of the AROS NTFS driver, it's buggy at the moment, but it's worth noting now as it'll enhance using AROS on the same computer as other OS, as you'll be able to share files with other OS you have installed.

Also worth mentioning that you can run AROS 68k in UAE (WinUAE probably works best, as Toni works on both). It's not perfect, but its development has been stunningly fast (all done in about 18 months) and improves pretty much daily. This is a useful thread to read to bring you up to speed with the state of play for AROS 68k:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=56211

HTH. Please feel free to ask any further questions you have.

EDIT: Oh and if you'd like to keep up to date with progress on AROS, but don't have time to visit AROS-Exec regularly, the next best thing would be to visit Planet AROS from time to time, which is a blog aggregator, mostly focused on AROS:
http://planet-aros.heimstetten.net/
Not many people seem to know about it, probably because it hasn't got an easy to remember URL, but it is handy to know about. If you forget the URL, just search for Planet AROS in Google, it should be the top result.

[Karlos]

Is X1000 sold at 3000$ your strategy to compete against AROS? :-)

It's not my strategy for anything. The whole reason this point has come up is the reiteration of the point that MOS runs on much cheaper hardware that so far seems to turn in equally good performance and that this is some sort of decisive factor in the X1000 being a failure; "I could buy 10 macs for that price and they'd each be as fast" may be a valid observation, but *if* performance versus cost was your only motivation you'd use AROS.

Neither OS4 or MOS can hold a candle to AROS on that front. It's free and it runs on commodity hardware as cheap or as expensive as you care to obtain. That's always been the case, but as you point out above, "red camp" trolls were always quick to point out that it lacked official sanction and that PPC was teh 1 true successor and so on. Likewise, despite your pleas to the contrary, "blue camp" trolls were always keen to point out that AROS was basically a hobby project not-quite-going-anywhere and certainly light years behind the level of maturity and compatibility of MOS and is thus not a serious option for the discerning Amiga users. I find it really hard to believe you've never come across the latter sentiment in your forum travels.

This X1000 project has big "dead end" written in the wall. The computer built in 2012 and sold at $3000 is only marginally better than used Macs from yesteryears.

As I said, considering many were insistent it would never arrive at any price, the fact it exists at all and is at least as good as a commercial machine that basically help put apple back on the map is quite an achievement, IMHO. It may very well be the last PPC desktop machine ever built, but that doesn't detract from the fact that it was realized.

It is time to admit PPC is finished. And when you have done that start enjoying old Macs, old Amigas, old/new AmigaOnes, SAMs, or whatever, again. The train is still here. There just aren't tracks anymore.

Erm, I currently have 2 PPC machines. One is a BlizzardPPC the other an A1. I'm not under any illusions about where they sit

Hmm... I think you are confused. MorphOS never had problem with AROS and they have shared their work in the past.

Not at all. The exchange of code between developers of the two has never had any bearing on the opinions of camp trolls. This just about summed it up perfectly: http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=3377

It is just that AROS not having binary compatibility and not so developed it has been dismissed by both MorphOS and OS4 users.

AROS has 68K binary compatibility. Janus UAE running in "coherence" mode has been around for a little while now. You may have to set it up initially (I had to, but I haven't tried more recent releases), but what do you want for free?

[HenryCase]

Janus UAE running in "coherence" mode has been around for a little while now. You may have to set it up initially (I had to, but I haven't tried more recent releases), but what do you want for free?

Actually, since late last year, Janus-UAE doesn't require any initial setup, it comes working out of the box, as it is shipped with AROS 68k. See here:
http://o1i.blogspot.com/

Also, Icaros has AmiBridge, which lets you launch 68k programs by double clicking on the program icon, and with Janus-UAE coherence mode the 68k programs can interact with x86 programs (sharing clipboard contents, for example).

[krashan]

1. OS4 and MorphOS have a JIT for 68k software, whereas AROS doesn't yet.
2. OS4 and MorphOS don't have to swap the byte order of 68k code, whereas AROS does (not including AROS PPC and AROS 68k).

You've forgot about:
3. OS4 and MorphOS emulation allows 68k applications to use native system components and vice versa.

[HenryCase]

You've forgot about:
3. OS4 and MorphOS emulation allows 68k applications to use native system components and vice versa.

Granted. Tell me, are there any 68k libraries in regular use on OS4 or MorphOS that don't have native equivalents? The Emumiga project should allow AROS to mix 68k and native libraries, and it'll be good to have some idea of the benefits this could bring.

[Karlos]

@Karlos

You have good points there.

Thanks. It can be hard work trying to remain impartial, the old "red v blue" stuff is so tiring after all these years.

However, it has to be pointed out that the obviously incorrect initial benchmark results were readily accepted as facts by many. This I believe shows the amount of unrealistic expectations some might have had of X1000.

That's true too. I've mostly adopted a "wait and see" approach to this whole thing. Some people have assumed the PA6T is necessarily a G5 slayer and thus ready to stomp all other PPC machines, without considering that the PA6T was designed for a different market. Where it probably will smash the G5 is in performance per watt, but all considered, that's not saying much.

One thing that has come out of this, at least for me, is the realisation that the old PPC machines perhaps aren't quite as slothful for everyday use as many assume. At least if the lame benchmarks were any indication of single core performance.

[itix]

It's not my strategy for anything.

But you work for Hyperion to improve OS4, don't you?

The whole reason this point has come up is the reiteration of the point that MOS runs on much cheaper hardware that so far seems to turn in equally good performance and that this is some sort of decisive factor in the X1000 being a failure; "I could buy 10 macs for that price and they'd each be as fast" may be a valid observation, but *if* performance versus cost was your only motivation you'd use AROS.

Indeed. MorphOS can stay alive only by improving its software. The operating system must go forward and key software must advance respectively. Everyone who have used MorphOS 2 recognizes it again when it is discussed or spotted somewhere.

Likewise, despite your pleas to the contrary, "blue camp" trolls were always keen to point out that AROS was basically a hobby project not-quite-going-anywhere and certainly light years behind the level of maturity and compatibility of MOS and is thus not a serious option for the discerning Amiga users. I find it really hard to believe you've never come across the latter sentiment in your forum travels.

AROS is a hobby project not going anywhere and is light years behind. There is no doubt about it. AROS is completely different cup of tea. It provides source compatible platform for Amiga users who want Amiga on their x86. Its strength is not in polished UI or software, its strength is in open source and x86.

As I said, considering many were insistent it would never arrive at any price, the fact it exists at all and is at least as good as a commercial machine that basically help put apple back on the map is quite an achievement. It may very well be the last PPC desktop machine ever built, but that doesn't detract from the fact that it was realized.

Nice, they did it, we can move forward.

Not at all. The exchange of code between developers of the two has never had any bearing on the opinions of camp trolls. This just about summed it up perfectly: http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=3377

I have only met AROS developers so far

AROS has 68K binary compatibility. Janus UAE running in "coherence" mode has been around for a little while now. You may have to set it up initially (I had to, but I haven't tried more recent releases), but what do you want for free?

Janus UAE again? Ok, let's see if my old 68k MUI applications run under AROS Zune.

[itix]

Granted. Tell me, are there any 68k libraries in regular use on OS4 or MorphOS that don't have native equivalents? The Emumiga project should allow AROS to mix 68k and native libraries, and it'll be good to have some idea of the benefits this could bring.

I don't know why it should matter because 68k MUI class can be embedded in applications.

[HenryCase]

AROS is a hobby project not going anywhere and is light years behind. There is no doubt about it.

For someone who a couple of posts ago admitted they'd barely paid any attention to AROS for a while, it seems odd for you to be so sure about this. Perhaps it would be better for you to take a fresh look at AROS to see where it's at now.

I don't know why it should matter because 68k MUI class can be embedded in applications.

Krashan thought it enough of a benefit to mention it, so I'd like to know how much this feature gets used.

[Karlos]

But you work for Hyperion to improve OS4, don't you?

That depends on how you define work. Work usually implies some sort of formal working contract and regular/pre-arranged payment. On that basis, no, I don't work for Hyperion*. I have, however, volunteered time to work on areas of OS4, principally for the classic version. And yes, that requires me to delve into the OS code here and there and so yes, I have an NDA.

I'll continue to work on it too, at least as long as I have a working machine. I'd like to do more, but my day job and other responsibilities keep me occupied.

*I suppose obtaining the latest classic release as well as a fully working BVision to replace my malfunctioning  one could be considered payment, but I see those as the minimum necessary tools for the task at hand.

[itix]

For someone who a couple of posts ago admitted they'd barely paid any attention to AROS for a while, it seems odd for you to be so sure about this. Perhaps it would be better for you to take a fresh look at AROS to see where it's at now.

I just did and I am not sure if you wish to have my comments. First of all browsing files with Wanderer is pain and it is much better browse files using a dock. Running SysMon results in crash. I can't change theme without restarting computer. Even changing screenmode can't be done without closing windows. Is Restart AROS in Shutdown menu (which doesnt have Shutdown btw) supposed to work? It would be also nice if Intuition settings had click to front option. The default Zune (MUI) theme is stuck in year 1993.

It is not bad. I mean stuff is there and Icaros comes with lot of software. Initial appearance of Icaros was very nice (nice background, preconfigured toolbar) but I find it is difficult to use.

Anyway, you forgot to mention that I have to buy Amiga Forever to run 68k software in AROS natively. Are there instructions how to use AROS/68k in AmiBridge?

[krashan]

Tell me, are there any 68k libraries in regular use on OS4 or MorphOS that don't have native equivalents?

As a programmer of DigiBooster 3 I often deal with music modules packed with XPK SQSH or SMPL compressor. There are no MorphOS native (or AmigaOS 4 native AFAIK) versions of them. M68k versions work without any problems.

Another example is ARexx. AmigaOS 4 uses (and MorphOS can use) M68k interpreter.

In fact the opposite possibility is much more interesting. Legacy M68k apps can use native PowerPC libraries, which make them faster and enhance functionality. For example M68k apps use native ASL requesters, which are much more powerful and comfortable compared to AmigaOS 3.x ones.