FPGA for dummies

[Linde]

So does that mean AGA chipset emulates ECS and ECS emulates OCS ?

Well, AGA certainly isn't OCS or ECS. It's compatible to some extent, but hey, whaddayaknow, some careless OCS/ECS programs won't work correctly with AGA unless you patch them because of low level incompatibilities. Whatever you call it, AGA itself is an extension of these designs.

[psxphill]

So does that mean AGA chipset emulates ECS and ECS emulates OCS ?

Definitely for AGA vs ECS, apart from the blitter it was basically a new implementation.
 
AGA & AAA don't emulate ECS all that well either. The weird super hires mode palette is different in ECS to all the other implementations, which is why when ECS came out Commodore were telling people to use the OS or else. They only claimed compatibility for hardware hitting programmes that used OCS features. Commodore went so far as to not even release documentation on AGA registers, as AAA didn't emulate those either.
 

It was a rhetorical question

It's not a good example of a rhetorical question, it came over as a strawman. However I don't think you expected anyone to disagree with you.

[Lord Aga]

em·u·late  
3. Computer Science To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same programs, and achieve the same results as the imitated system.

All right... So, only the very first Amiga prototype which successfully ran some software is the original. All other Amigas 1000, 500, 2000, 600, 1200.. etc ever produced are emulators. So everything is an emulator, and we can stop this stupid discussion about emulation that pops up every now and then. Hopefully it will let people enjoy new FPGA hardware without obnoxious comments.

[psxphill]

All right... So, only the very first Amiga prototype which successfully ran some software is the original. All other Amigas 1000, 500, 2000, 600, 1200.. etc ever produced are emulators.

They aren't emulators, they are computers that have have components that emulate others. Some old sound cards had soundblaster emulation, that doesn't mean that the computer you put it inside was just an emulator.
 

and we can stop this stupid discussion about emulation that pops up every now and then. Hopefully it will let people enjoy new FPGA hardware without obnoxious comments.

Discussing whether it's an emulator or not is not obnoxious. Even the "I don't like emulation but I like fpga's, therefore an fpga can't be emulation" standpoint isn't obnoxious.
 
A 68060 and PPC in an FPGA for the A1200 would be awesome.

[cunnpole]

Regardless of what you want to call the likes of the Replay (emulation, re-implementation, lamp post...) I'd be surprised if anyone would disagree that it will be hell of a lot closer to the original hardware that we love than WinUAE, and that is pretty impressive as it is. Even if you consider emulation a dirty word, this will not be like any emulation you have experienced before. There won't be any controller lag or host OS getting in the way.

Yes, you may have the occasional game or demo that doesn't work exactly as it did on your aWhatever, but I expect this to be rare once it matures, possibly even less than we get with OCS, ECS, AGA if we build enough configs for the different custom chips. For some apps you'll never get 100% compatible on anything but the exact original hardware it was written for (without patching), but we'll just have to suck it up or fix it. We already have to do this with our original hardware variants so I don't see the big deal.

[Lord Aga]

They aren't emulators, they are computers that have have components that emulate others. Some old sound cards had soundblaster emulation, that doesn't mean that the computer you put it inside was just an emulator.

Yes they are emulators. See the definition. They had some modifications in respect to the prototype and they can accept the same data and execute the same programs. They are all emulators. You, me, and everyone else (except for DH and Amiga/Commodore engineers) have had nothing but emulators our entire lives.

Discussing whether it's an emulator or not is not obnoxious.

Yes it is. Regardless of whether you are right or not, and whatever the definition of an emulator might be, whenever someone feels excited about new FPGA stuff here comes one of the "captain technicalities" and drags on about it not being a real hardware implementation but only an emulation. It is damn right annoying and obnoxious.

If someone had a hand drawing of a computer and called it his Amiga I would support him, and not lecture him about that not being a real computer.

Be positive and supportive.

[Linde]

em·u·late  
3. Computer Science To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same programs, and achieve the same results as the imitated system.

All right... So, only the very first Amiga prototype which successfully ran some software is the original. All other Amigas 1000, 500, 2000, 600, 1200.. etc ever produced are emulators. So everything is an emulator, and we can stop this stupid discussion about emulation that pops up every now and then. Hopefully it will let people enjoy new FPGA hardware without obnoxious comments.

Obnoxious comments? Do you feel like these facts (that are totally irrelevant from anything other than a technical perspective) impose on the experience of using these FPGA systems?

Oh, and no, I don't think your argument holds any water. In what way does it make sense to you?

[psxphill]

Regardless of whether you are right or not, and whatever the definition of an emulator might be, whenever someone feels excited about new FPGA stuff here comes one of the "captain technicalities" and drags on about it not being a real hardware implementation but only an emulation. It is damn right annoying and obnoxious.
 
If someone had a hand drawing of a computer and called it his Amiga I would support him, and not lecture him about that not being a real computer.
 
Be positive and supportive.

I'm not sure where to go with that, I don't think I'd be excited if I ordered an FPGA arcade and a hand drawn picture turned up. Patronising people doesn't help them.
 
The FPGA arcade isn't an Amiga, it can emulate lots of different computers/consoles.
 
You only consider it dragging it down because you are being unsupportive and negative about emulators.
 
And yes, people emulate others.
 
em·u·late  
/ˈemyəˌlāt/

Verb

• Match or surpass (a person or achievement), typically by imitation.
• Imitate.

[billt]

Hi all, i didn't intend to rekindle an argument about what is or is not emulation. the links i posted go to a technical education series of webinars introducing fpga technology to newbies. I thought the op of this thread and some others would be interested in learning.


People designing with fpgas design circuits that are placed into the chip by configuration.

Whether or not you feel the result is emulation or not i don't feel like participating in again, though i do have my choice on that debate.

[Lord Aga]

Obnoxious comments? Do you feel like these facts (that are totally irrelevant from anything other than a technical perspective) impose on the experience of using these FPGA systems?

Well, when someone says:
"Yaaay a cool piece of hardware, this is gonna be my new Amiga"
Do you feel that comments like:
"No no no, this is not a hardware Amiga this is an emulator BLAH BLAH BLAH sheets of text how this is an emulator and not the real stuff."
Actually help, or do something good ?

As I already said, regardless of whether you are right or not. Is it more important to be right at all costs, or to enjoy the good stuff with fellow Amigans ?

I like FPGA Arcade, I like NatAmi and hope it will pull through, and I will like and support whatever FPGA project comes next. Will buy some of them for sure. Probably all of them. But I, most certainly, would not like to listen to someone saying day after day after day how it's not this and not that.

Oh, and no, I don't think your argument holds any water. In what way does it make sense to you?

Check the dictionary definition I posted. I can stubbornly defend my point till the end of time (since there is no 21st apocalypse apparently) and pollute the thread to the point of unreadability. Would anyone want that ? Would it actually matter whether I can prove it or not ? Why aren't FPGA threads about support and contribution instead of proving that FPGA is emulation and not real hardware ?


@psxphill

I'm not sure where to go with that, I don't think I'd be excited if I ordered an FPGA arcade and a hand drawn picture turned up. Patronising people doesn't help them.

This is just it. Can't you take anything with a little humor and spirit ? Why does it have to be either 0 or 1 ?

The FPGA arcade isn't an Amiga, it can emulate lots of different computers/consoles.
You only consider it dragging it down because you are being unsupportive and negative about emulators.
And yes, people emulate others.

Yes, FPGA Arcade is not an Amiga, yes it can be lots of things.
No I have nothing against emulators, I use a couple of them actually (software ones).
Yes people emulate others as well.
And it is not a matter of you or me being right or wrong, or if we agree or not. It's about supporting projects for what they CAN do, not dragging endless discussions about what they are not. Are we on the same page here ?

[psxphill]

I can stubbornly defend my point till the end of time (since there is no 21st apocalypse apparently) and pollute the thread to the point of unreadability. Would anyone want that ?

You appear to want that, I'm so sick of hearing that emulators are bad and fpga's isn't emulation that I can be just as stubborn as you.
 

Well, when someone says:
"Yaaay a cool piece of hardware, this is gonna be my new Amiga"
Do you feel that comments like:
"No no no, this is not a hardware Amiga this is an emulator BLAH BLAH BLAH sheets of text how this is an emulator and not the real stuff."
Actually help, or do something good ?

I only get involved when people are slagging off emulators and saying that using an fpga isn't emulation. My "contribution" to the debate is just as valid as theirs.

[Lord Aga]

You appear to want that, I'm so sick of hearing that emulators are bad and fpga's isn't emulation that I can be just as stubborn as you.

Of course I don't want that. It's just an example how a pointless discussion can be dragged indefinite. This (and all other FPGA threads) are polluted enough as it is.
I don't think anyone ever said WinUAE is bad. Toni is doing such a great job that he has the respect of all Amigans in the world. Without WinUAE I wouldn't be able to prep a CF drive for my A600. Hats off to the man !
But many people seem to like FPGA projects more because they are tangible. Gives them something "real" to tinker with.
If someone gets a "better personal feeling", with FPGA, AROS x86, Mac MOS, or something else, how could you, and why would you want to prove otherwise ? Live and let live.
 

I only get involved when people are slagging off emulators and saying that using an fpga isn't emulation. My "contribution" to the debate is just as valid as theirs.

So in other words, you are behaving like a ten year old ?

[psxphill]

So in other words, you are behaving like a ten year old ?

Sometimes you have to sink to other peoples levels when they throw a tantrum that you suggested that an fgpa is emulation. It's all they understand. If you could figure out a better way to shut them up then I'm all ears.

[Lord Aga]

Just don't do it.
FPGA threads are FPGA threads. Of course they will attract some people who think FPGA projects are the best thing since sliced bread. Some will think it's better than sex, better than bacon. Some will think it's better than all classic Amigas just because it's brand new.
And who's to say they are wrong ? It's personal perception really. It's not emulation, it's not earthly at all, it's divine. Let them enjoy.

It's not like anyone said: "Hey you can submerge your Amiga in the bathtub while you're taking a bath".
Now that's a post for intervention

Instead of waging pointless wars, start a WinUAE (or some other emulator) thread and explain how they are useful, and why do you like them. When someone comes dissing emulators I will come and defend your point. Not because I like emulators better than FPGA or the other way round, but because I like everything for what it CAN do.

[psxphill]

Just don't do it.
FPGA threads are FPGA threads. Of course they will attract some people who think FPGA projects are the best thing since sliced bread. Some will think it's better than sex, better than bacon. Some will think it's better than all classic Amigas just because it's brand new.
And who's to say they are wrong ?

You're getting confused between me saying that the fpga is emulation and whether I like fpga's.
 
I already have a 1541ultimate2, which is a 1541 emulation in an fpga. I would probably buy a fpga arcade when it becomes available.

[Lord Aga]

No, I understand you perfectly.
But some may like FPGAs more than you and I. Or have their own definition of emulators.
Why carry on the discussions whether FPGAs are better than something or not, or are they emulation or not ? To some, if they are not ASICs then they are emulators. To others, if they can knock on it and they make a sound then they are "real" and not emulators. To some, they will be emulators no matter what, since they are not Moto's CPUs. So what ? Bring them on and let us see what they can do. Why argue semantics ?