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AuthorTopic: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...  (Read 5211 times)

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Offline commodorejohn

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2011, 05:32:17 AM »
Quote from: koaftder;671794
Dude, this pretty petty crap. I know your on a roll this evening, but damn.
Hey, it's your criteria, not mine. If you're going to claim American economic betterment, I'd like to know that it's actually a net gain before I accept that argument.

Quote
company: Technicraft Plastics, Ft. Laurdale Florida
Okay, I stand corrected on that point. I'd still like to see some numbers, though.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline Duce

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Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2011, 05:35:52 AM »
We all saw the videos, and all considered the source of said videos.  For all I know that plastics place could have done a handful of protos of them, and the rest of the case housings were made in China, lol.  Hell, there may have only been 200 of the machines ever made thus far anyways, but I will give them props for using a local source at some stage.

I saw videos from the same company that also posted pics of their manufacturing facilities that later turned out to be some 3 year old pic from some fabber overseas.  I saw videos from the same company that posted "fan pics" of dream machines, in which they removed all credits to the original artist.  I saw videos from the same company that has harassed, slandered, made homophobic rumors up about respected members of the community and tech journalism industry.  The same people who have fanboys that have made outright threats to people here and elsewhere for politely speaking their minds about their differing opinions on products.  See my point, lol?

A pile of horseplop at first glance still stinks, no matter how many perfume bottles I see thrown at it - and I am merely saying "consider the source".

No one ever addresses all the negative and outright hostile, appalling aspects of their business practices, usage of community sites to spam for free advertising purposes, and failure to deliver on a lot of promises, and it's very blind to only see one side of the coin.  The benefit of doubt has been given 1000 times over and we are only told here that "we aren't their target market", and I would have expected them to move on by now.  People keep telling us that the sky is purple, and when we say "ok, convince me, I'm all ears and eyes" they shove their fingers in their ears and shout "LALALALA I CANNOT HEAR YOU LALALALALA, TRON MOVIE! BIG BUSINESS!!11!!1" like a small child.

Like I said 100 times over and I never got an answer once, and in fact got a ban on their forums for it - when is one of these machines going to be mailed to a reputable review site in the caliber of Engadget for a no holds barred review?  The fact that hasn't occurred does not speak well.  If I was making these great machines, I'd be mailing them en masse to review sites.

I was hoping to get a hands on with one personally, after being told they would be in big name retailers on the shelves.  Every big name retailer I have inquired with in many cities, large and small - in North America says "Commodore what, didn't they used to make calculators or typewriters or something?  We don't carry those, we sell computers and modern electronics", like I was some sort of caveman asking when fire was invented.

And in the end, my sincere hope is that guys like the FPGA Arcade crew and the Natami folks put out a product at a price with good performance and they sell so many they simply can't keep them in stock.  That's who deserves the kudos and revenue vs. this mass market commodity stuff.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 05:39:02 AM by Duce »
 

Offline gaula92

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2011, 09:33:06 AM »
Quote
And in the end, my sincere hope is that guys like the FPGA Arcade crew and the Natami folks put out a product at a price with good performance and they sell so many they simply can't keep them in stock. That's who deserves the kudos and revenue vs. this mass market commodity stuff.


Well said!! :D

That, true Amiga hardware, is where my hopes are.
I'm waiting for my FPGA Arcade and I'm a very happy Minimig user already. It feels exactly as my A1200 does for games, programs and demos. And FPGA Arcade will take that far beyond!

Damn CUSA for using names they don't respect!
 

Offline Middleman

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2011, 04:52:13 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;671780
No, they're producing a PC in a C64 case.

==Yes they are not denying that. We all know it is....

Quote from: commodorejohn;671780
Luck had nothing to do with it. Money did. The Commodore and Amiga brands have been passed around like a two-dollar whore since the bankruptcy back in 1994 - Barry's just the latest "client."
==Commodorejohn, can I ask you to please refrain from such language? Because there's really no need to be so rude mate. Can you please just stick back to the topic at hand (which is alternative operating systems?). Thanks....

Quote from: commodorejohn;671780
Is that what's important? That as long as it's Americans exploiting the brand, insulting the community, and slandering and demeaning anybody who raises objections, it's okay? (And should I even have to point out that the C64x is generic Chinese PC components in a case manufactured overseas, and IIRC assembled in China as well? It's about as American as escargot.)

==Well for some folks, I suppose it IS important (Commodore's history WAS American and I believe that it should stay American for all times sake, out of respect for those folks who once lived and worked in Chester). But I disagree with you on the disrespect part. NOBODY should be disrespectful to anyone....

Look, I understand how you guys feel about the importance of 'preserving' the essence of Commodore & Amiga's past, but you guys are also missing some key facts here. The truth is the Commodore of today is 'but a fragment' of its past. Much of its patent portfolios were sold as has past technical knowledge and knowhow - so it has to start from scratch somewhere without ploughing millions or tons of resources which it doesn't have at its disposal. We acknowledge it isn't Sony, but it can be done with the right mindset. But saying that, building systems from an x86 architecture isn't a bad way to start. You could call it 'building clone computers like everyone else' - but I call it 'moving with the times'.
Starting from scratch with an x86 basis today doesn't necessarily mean the end of the Amiga line. If utilised correctly we'll get our 'perfect' system of being able to use both retro and modern software in a great case/setup - because the technology is already there. And unlike the old Amiga system of the past we'll have a system that is constantly upgradable and future-proofed. All that's needed is the casing, the updated OS, and relevant parts. If such parts are exclusive to CUSA, the systems they produce could still be 'just as unique' as the old Amiga.
One thing I would like to mention is that while you may think 'going the x86 route' is against everything Commodore/Amiga was, please remember that Jay Miner first originally chose the Motorola chip for the Amiga based upon its predicted performance and nothing more. It was chosen because it was the only chip available at its time that could do the things he thought it could do. Now that the x86 has surpassed the 68k design not just in sales but support, it is high time Amiga as a line/brand should do the same and become 'mainstream'. But instead of focusing on just architecture like it has on the past, it should now focus on the OS, systems performance and value and the kinds of things ie. software/apps/hardware it could offer the end user. If done well, a brand with its own exclusive OS and hardware dedicated to fun, gaming, performance and individual creativity can still be met and be proud to call itself an Amiga....

Also the idea of switching platforms to one of emulation (like what CUSA has done with using Amiga Forever/Vice/UAE) isn't a bad one. A good example of this is Sony's new PS Vita. Despite being a 'Playstation portable' the new Vita actually only emulates the old PSP games using the new ARM-based quad-core chips.

As for the C64x, no the motherboard is not Chinese it was Taiwanese. But the case IS made in Florida with the help of Motorola.

Quote from: commodorejohn;671780
Okay, even taking that statement at face value? Why is that a good thing!? Commodore corporate never had any idea what it was doing, not since the initial success of the C64 and the launch of the Amiga. The community is armed to the gills with tales from engineers and programmers ready and willing to attest to how ineptly things were run. We'd be better off trying to figure out what post-Tramiel Commodore would never have done in a million years than try to follow some theoretical progression from the days of R&D malaise, countless failed side-projects, and executive malfeasance.

==Yes, we know that. And that's unfortunately that's a trait of the computer business....
It's not just Commodore who had this problem. I remember Steve Jobs had mentioned this about Apple too in its early days (watch Jobs' Next videos on Youtube). There were too many engineers coming up with so many ideas ie. too many cooks who could spoil the broth that the company was being stalled and coming to roadblocks.......because it couldn't decide where to go. It was the same problem that Apple faced, same problem that Commodore faced (and where they failed). This is the same problem CUSA and we as a community are facing today. The issue now however is, technology has moved on, and we DO have a choice. X86 is clearly a winner (after winning the markets all these years with its potential for expandability). All that is needed now is the porting over of AmigaOS to the platform, updated to 64-bit etc. and exclusive to CUSA systems and we're set!

Quote from: commodorejohn;671780
Here's my question, though. If you're not making something different, then you're going head-to-head with the entire established industry. And if you're doing that, what could you possibly have that would leave you in a position to even stay afloat, let alone make any headway? Here's a hint, a brand and a fancy case are not going to cut it in the cut-throat, slash-price world of PC clone manufacturers. You'd have better luck trying to swim in a pool of pirahnas.

Yes, Barry to you 'may' be seen as having nothing to do with Commodore in your eyes, but I see him differently. To me, he has done AS MUCH for the Commodore and Amiga brands as has Hyperion et al (and I've been following the computers market for years).

I ask you to just try to put yourself into his shoes. If YOU were Barry today and running Commodore today, what can you possibly do to revive the brand? Given the fact that there is FAR MORE competition today than there ever has been, the tech and software for the original Amiga is outdated and most software today is practically designed and based for x86 PC including Apple? In business terms, if you're not in this market or supporting this market you are finished.

But if you create a system and brand with an OS that is designed not just for gaming/retro gaming but made for programming in general; not just for simple videos but ideal for multimedia, graphics and broadcast use; not just for digital photography/3D but ready for high-level power image processing, rendering and next-gen softwares and OSes - then you have an Amiga - which was basically the 'Lamborghini of computers' in its time. And this is what recreating an Amiga on an x86 platform is all about....
 

Offline Thorham

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2011, 11:06:53 AM »
Quote from: Middleman;672002
The truth is the Commodore of today is 'but a fragment' of its past.
No, it's not, it has absolutely nothing to do with the past at all.
Quote from: Middleman;672002
Starting from scratch with an x86 basis today doesn't necessarily mean the end of the Amiga line. If utilised correctly we'll get our 'perfect' system of being able to use both retro and modern software in a great case/setup - because the technology is already there.
Perfect system? We? Speak for yourself. Anyway, 'we' don't need 'Commodore' for that. If I want such a 'perfect' system, then I'll just pop into the peecee shoppe around the corner and get one that costs less and performs better.
 

Offline haywirepc

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2011, 02:38:56 PM »
Middleman is a nice user name for this guy, since he is just a shill for a company and its representatives too cowardly to post with their real names.

Grow some balls and own up to your own bull****, you cowards.
 

Offline Middleman

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2011, 04:05:06 PM »
Quote from: haywirepc;672051
Middleman is a nice user name for this guy, since he is just a shill for a company and its representatives too cowardly to post with their real names.

Grow some balls and own up to your own bull****, you cowards.


Actually if you have been reading the CUSA threads at all I do have a name you know.... > http://www.commodore-amiga.org/en/forum/2-welcome-mat/2456-re-introduce-yourself#2456

And no, I am not their 'shill'. I just happen to be a customer who has been happy with their service and support for the community.

And to answer your question, no the Middleman name has got NOTHING to do with CUSA. I am not affiliated with them at all in any shape or form...I am simply a customer, and the Middleman name is actually something I've been using personally for a long time WAY BEFORE I was even on C-A.org....
 

Offline commodorejohn

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2011, 05:58:01 PM »
Quote from: Middleman;672002
Commodorejohn, can I ask you to please refrain from such language? Because there's really no need to be so rude mate.
Sorry. Would "seen as many callers as a bargain-priced lady of the evening" be better? 'Cause I'm sticking by the essential point.

Quote
The truth is the Commodore of today is 'but a fragment' of its past.
It isn't anything. The Commodore of the 1980s no longer exists. CUSA has rented the name - that's all. They don't have technical know-how, they don't have vision, they don't have anything.

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But saying that, building systems from an x86 architecture isn't a bad way to start. You could call it 'building clone computers like everyone else' - but I call it 'moving with the times'.
Call it whatever you want, I care about the end result, and the end result is bog-standard clone hardware in a repro case being marketed as the True Heir to the Throne of something completely different.

Quote
Starting from scratch with an x86 basis today doesn't necessarily mean the end of the Amiga line. If utilised correctly we'll get our 'perfect' system of being able to use both retro and modern software in a great case/setup - because the technology is already there.
No it isn't. There's no technology in a C64x but what there is in any other PC. And don't say "but, emulators!" I'm not interested in PC clones running emulators, I already have one.

Quote
And unlike the old Amiga system of the past we'll have a system that is constantly upgradable and future-proofed.
There's nothing preventing a non-PC system from being upgradable. Look at how far the original Amigas have come, all thanks to a really solid expansion bus.

Quote
All that's needed is the casing, the updated OS, and relevant parts. If such parts are exclusive to CUSA, the systems they produce could still be 'just as unique' as the old Amiga.
But they aren't. You can theorize all you like, but in the end there's nothing unique about the C64x - even the case is cloned from another company. The OS is Linux, it's so not-unique that there are hundreds of different variants on the exact same thing. There is nothing unique about it.

Quote
One thing I would like to mention is that while you may think 'going the x86 route' is against everything Commodore/Amiga was, please remember that Jay Miner first originally chose the Motorola chip for the Amiga based upon its predicted performance and nothing more. It was chosen because it was the only chip available at its time that could do the things he thought it could do.
Maybe so. I don't really care. I don't want 68k because I think it's more "authentic," I want it because I like the 68k. It's a good architecture, and it deserves more love.

Quote
But instead of focusing on just architecture like it has on the past, it should now focus on the OS, systems performance and value and the kinds of things ie. software/apps/hardware it could offer the end user.
Except for the part where that's exactly what hasn't happened at all.

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X86 is clearly a winner (after winning the markets all these years with its potential for expandability).
x86 has jack to do with expandability, whatever its other merits. It's a CPU, not an expansion bus.

Quote
Yes, Barry to you 'may' be seen as having nothing to do with Commodore in your eyes, but I see him differently.
That's very nice, but what does it have to do with anything? I don't care how you see him - I've seen his actions and his mannerisms, and I conclude thereby that he is a tool with delusions of grandeur. If you want to live in a fairyland where he doesn't insult people who come to him with honest questions and ask people about their sex lives, you go right ahead.

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I ask you to just try to put yourself into his shoes. If YOU were Barry today and running Commodore today, what can you possibly do to revive the brand?
Anything but what he has. He's got money, he could finance the NatAmi project. It'd sell better than the C64x has, I promise you that.

Quote
Given the fact that there is FAR MORE competition today than there ever has been, the tech and software for the original Amiga is outdated and most software today is practically designed and based for x86 PC including Apple? In business terms, if you're not in this market or supporting this market you are finished.
Quite the opposite: given that there is far more competition today than there has ever been, the thing to do is enter a completely different market so you don't have to deal with it. If CUSA had supported the community and put weight behind projects the community actually wanted from the start, they would have a unique project that people would want and nobody else would be providing, a.k.a. a captive market.

Quote
But if you create a system and brand with an OS that is designed not just for gaming/retro gaming but made for programming in general; not just for simple videos but ideal for multimedia, graphics and broadcast use; not just for digital photography/3D but ready for high-level power image processing, rendering and next-gen softwares and OSes
Linux isn't designed for any of those things, except programming. It has them, but not with the same selection as Windows, and generally not as easy to use, either. They picked Linux because it's free, not because it's some mythic multimedia OS.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
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"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline lsmart

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2011, 06:47:27 PM »
Quote from: Middleman;672002
Yes, Barry to you 'may' be seen as having nothing to do with Commodore in your eyes, but I see him differently.

Asking for the money upfront and delivering the technology later (or give a refund) is a classic Commodore move (see the "challenge" thread). I think Barry has learned a lot from studying Tramiel. :)
 

Offline dammy

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2011, 08:47:29 PM »
Quote from: haywirepc;672051
Middleman is a nice user name for this guy, since he is just a shill for a company and its representatives too cowardly to post with their real names.


That's not a very nice thing to say about Middleman, he doesn't deserve your venom.   There are exactly three C=USA representatives, only two of those post on AO, namely Leo and Barry (Digitex).  The third I've only seen on C=USA facebook and CA.org, Mr. Hawk.

Quote
Grow some balls and own up to your own bull****, you cowards.


Such rage over an announcement on another web site?  Unbelievable!
Dammy

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Unless otherwise noted, I speak only for myself.
 

Offline dammy

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2011, 08:49:41 PM »
Quote from: lsmart;672089
Asking for the money upfront and delivering the technology later (or give a refund) is a classic Commodore move (see the "challenge" thread). I think Barry has learned a lot from studying Tramiel. :)

What you didn't include was the fact that the money is to be kept by a third person escrow account.  C=USA doesn't see a penny until the units are shipped to 500 customers.  I'd say that is a huge difference since C=USA is on the financial line if things do not go well in development and it winds up costing more.
Dammy

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Unless otherwise noted, I speak only for myself.
 

Offline Middleman

Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2011, 08:11:40 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
Sorry. Would "seen as many callers as a bargain-priced lady of the evening" be better? 'Cause I'm sticking by the essential point.
It isn't anything. The Commodore of the 1980s no longer exists. CUSA has rented the name - that's all. They don't have technical know-how, they don't have vision, they don't have anything.

==Err….isn't that the whole point of starting a new Commodore from the ground up? We know they don't have anything to work with and we (certainly I) want to work with them to get them back onto their footing, so later on they can bring back those skills that were lost. This is why (and I mean it) it would be a great help (and go a long way) if everyone would calm down a little here and chip in to help CUSA in some way. Working towards a unified (and finalized) platform for Amiga is a great way to start. And personally I don't mind if it is x86, ARM or PowerPC.

Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
Call it whatever you want, I care about the end result, and the end result is bog-standard clone hardware in a repro case being marketed as the True Heir to the Throne of something completely different.

==Well again I see it differently. I see the new Amigas as having two strands - one Classic (based on proper legacy Amiga specs ie. Natami/Freescale Qoriq) and one based on Intel, but powerful setups (Nvidia Tesla etc.). All are performance based setups, like what IBM has done with their blade servers, based on two separate platforms.

Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
No it isn't. There's no technology in a C64x but what there is in any other PC. And don't say "but, emulators!" I'm not interested in PC clones running emulators, I already have one.
There's nothing preventing a non-PC system from being upgradable. Look at how far the original Amigas have come, all thanks to a really solid expansion bus.

==I guess……but it doesn't stop folks upgrading from readily available PC parts. But Commodore did have good engineers.

Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
But they aren't. You can theorize all you like, but in the end there's nothing unique about the C64x - even the case is cloned from another company. The OS is Linux, it's so not-unique that there are hundreds of different variants on the exact same thing. There is nothing unique about it.

==The C64 is alright to be done this way. Everybody knows it's a PC. There is nothing really special. But with the addition of Commodore OS and the case it has made it something different. Some people (like myself) like what it is....

Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
Maybe so. I don't really care. I don't want 68k because I think it's more "authentic," I want it because I like the 68k. It's a good architecture, and it deserves more love.

==Well I never said the 68k wasn't good - it's amazing it lasted so long and is still chugging along as we speak today. It's just that other systems, softwares and technologies has since passed it by. And if you want to play the latest softwares you just can't use it any longer....that's the reality. But maybe going onto the Qoriq might change all that...

Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
Except for the part where that's exactly what hasn't happened at all.

==Well what do you expect for a system that has been out of commission for so long (and thus lost its majority support base)?

Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
x86 has jack to do with expandability, whatever its other merits. It's a CPU, not an expansion bus.

==Well call it whatever you will, but it has survived the onslaught of various 'platforms' over the years and emerged the victor (sad to say)....
Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
That's very nice, but what does it have to do with anything? I don't care how you see him - I've seen his actions and his mannerisms, and I conclude thereby that he is a tool with delusions of grandeur. If you want to live in a fairyland where he doesn't insult people who come to him with honest questions and ask people about their sex lives, you go right ahead.

== To be honest there is nothing wrong with 'grandeur'. It was the wacky grandeur ideas of Steve Jobs for example that got Apple to where it is today. As for rudeness, well I've come across people far more 'ruder' if you will in life. But on accusations that Barry was being 'rude' maybe were understandable. In my understanding Barry will only say something 'rude' if you begin to pick or attack at him personally, that and with some form of verbal abuse. But I guess such things applies to anyone here and not just Barry. So there are no problems with Barry in general as far as I know. The only thing I do know however, is he's just someone not very good with PR.

Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
Anything but what he has. He's got money, he could finance the NatAmi project. It'd sell better than the C64x has, I promise you that.

==Well believe it or not I have asked him about the Natami and at the time he wasn't so concerned.
But the good thing about Barry is that he does and can change his mind about things when enough people say the same thing and convince him it is a worthwhile pursuit. You just have to be realistic with Barry, that's what I've found. So you never know….

Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
Quite the opposite: given that there is far more competition today than there has ever been, the thing to do is enter a completely different market so you don't have to deal with it. If CUSA had supported the community and put weight behind projects the community actually wanted from the start, they would have a unique project that people would want and nobody else would be providing, a.k.a. a captive market.

==Well I'm not against such an idea...
Maybe the problem is some of us keep relegating the 'new Commodores' as being machines below Amiga performance. Perhaps we should let Commodore itself be a 'PC performance brand' and allow the Amiga brand to flourish itself as a PowerPC based brand. Maybe that is the answer?
But certainly, I wouldn't mind seeing a new Amiga maybe based on the Freescale Qoriq T5 running AmigaOS. That would be great!

Quote from: commodorejohn;672080
Linux isn't designed for any of those things, except programming. It has them, but not with the same selection as Windows, and generally not as easy to use, either. They picked Linux because it's free, not because it's some mythic multimedia OS.

==Well things can be adapted. Perhaps the new Amiga could have dual-boot AmigaOS and CommodoreOS (based on PenguinPPC) as standard. That would help create a new niche....
 

Offline gertsy

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Re: An alternative approach to re-launching classic computers...
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2011, 11:59:09 AM »
Wow a $400 for a cool Microbee.  Good on 'em..