OS 4.1 Update 3 Released

[HammerD]

Well, what was the latest version released as a complete ISO then? OS4.1.2? OS4.1.1? To make a clean-slate install you would have to start from there (wherever that is), and then start adding all subsequent updates, one after another, until you have reached the latest one...

4.1 Update 1 was a full ISO.  Update 2 was an installer as is Update 3, so the sequence is 4.1 Update 1 ISO, Update 2, then Update 3.  For AmigaOS 4.1 Classic it's just Update 3 as it is already at the Update 2 level.

...which is very different from the MorphOS way. You can download any of the above MorphOS versions and boot/install directly from the CD. Clean-slate, or upgrade, your choice. But here is the thing - you don't have to! The reason to why only the latest version is linked to from the MorphOS Team's webpage, is because that's all you'll need! No need to install x amounts of prior OS versions, and then upgrade from that.

Does it not backup your mossys: directory and install a new one every time, even if you do an upgrade? I don't really see your point.  MorphOS is coming as full releases, and not update packages, so obviously there will be a difference.  I don't see why you are making a fuss over this.

Only one download needed, always, and it's an ISO, always!

That's a design decision.  It has its good points and weak points.  One weak point is that you have to download an entire ISO, burn it, just for the "updates" to go from 2.6 to 2.7.

Yes, and this didn't happen by a random coincidence, it was a design decision. And a very good and clever decision too, with hindsight to this OS4.1.3 release (and others as well)! Upgrades goes much smoother on MorphOS, thanks to this!

Again this is a design decision, and may have been influenced by the fact that the MorphOS team didn't work from the original source code, so they separated all their things in their own directory, rather than directly updating the components themselves (because they didn't have access to them.  Effectively you have two sys: assignments which is not required for OS4 since it *is* the original.
[/quote]

If some moron breaks all recommendations and instructions and starts removing or modifying things in the system's exclusive, "don't-touch" MOSSYS, and starts relying on that, rather than use the proper user-space SYS for this, then they are completely on their own when it's time to update, and they have only themselves to blame for any problems. The "moron-protection" only goes that far you know... :p

Well this is no different than the case of OS4, if you go replacing sobjects or system libraries....

All this is obviously *very* different from OS4...

I disagree...but then again I don't think we can ever agree since you are so firmly entrenched into the MorphOS side for some reason.

[itix]

What i mean is a user could have replaced libraries or other system files such as MUI classes or modified s-s or be running some 3rd party software...

It is always possible... nobody knows what those installer scripts are doing. Problem is user can not really know is his install clean or not.

To quote your reply to tmhgm:

Does it not backup your mossys: directory and install a new one every time, even if you do an upgrade? I don't really see your point. MorphOS is coming as full releases, and not update packages, so obviously there will be a difference.

You can choose to update or install as new. If you just update you can keep your old settings, user-startup (while s-s is replaced), fonts, libs, classes, almost everything you have installed outside mossys: is kept intact. User can update from any previous version without installing any intermediate patches.

If update goes wrong you can always restore your previous mossys: what is also useful when testing iso images.

That's a design decision. It has its good points and weak points. One weak point is that you have to download an entire ISO, burn it, just for the "updates" to go from 2.6 to 2.7.

You dont have to burn it (although I recommend it). You can just mount it and install from there.

Again this is a design decision, and may have been influenced by the fact that the MorphOS team didn't work from the original source code, so they separated all their things in their own directory, rather than directly updating the components themselves (because they didn't have access to them. Effectively you have two sys: assignments which is not required for OS4 since it *is* the original.

Nothing prevents you using OS4SYS: or maybe even implementing different scheme. Neither did AROS components (i.e. locale.library) support mossys: either so it was retrofitted where needed.

Oh, btw, MorphOS 0.x versions didnt have mossys: assign but it directly replaced original components. (Due to this legacy MorphOS is still trying to load #?.library.elf first.)

[mikeymike]

I think there was a similar thing in Windows95 (or was it win 98?)

But does that make it *a good way* then?

You said it was "hilarious" that OS 4.1.1 then 2 then 3 had to be put on in series (implication:  bad).  I countered/implied with that it's not such an uncommon practice, with the two big players engaging in it from time to time (further implication:  So it can't be that bad).  I don't think it's a good thing, but as I said previously, if I were inclined to get a new Amiga-type machine, accepting that developer time isn't infinite and can't magically be squeezed into a smaller timeframe, I would prefer that more time was spent on having the 'day-to-day' features of the OS working than the installer/upgrade system working 100% to begin with (and, as I previously said, "as long as it doesn't brick the system").

[itix]

I would prefer that more time was spent on having the 'day-to-day' features of the OS working than the installer/upgrade system working 100% to begin with (and, as I previously said, "as long as it doesn't brick the system").

I dont see difference if devs are spending their precious time to support users how to install it correctly.

[ssolie]

And this is how the Lead Developer comments this:

"Both IBrowse and YAM are 3rd party so I suggest you talk to the author(s) directly."
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=271#p3491

I mean, OMG! Can't believe I'm reading that! Like: "We ****ed up the OS so the 3rd party apps you have been using for a decade suddenly don't work anymore, but that's not our fault". I'm out of words, don't know what to say. I'm just amazed...

I am the "Lead Developer" and it was just a simple MUI installation issue in the end.

I was thinking perhaps they had an old install of YAM or something but I was wrong.

[ssolie]

With this kind of project management, the X1000 isn't heading for mass production -- it's mess production.

And when the lead developer starts blaming third party application developers for some of the most common apps suddenly not working anymore, then you understand the level of professionalism behind this mess. This is a kind of debacle that would lead to people getting fired -- had anyone been employed as professionals that is. But no, this is more like a roadshow circus on a hobby basis; "Wanna try out being a clown? Come join us! The result doesn't really matter, only that we have fun in the process."

I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated when you don't even use the product in question.

[HotRod]

I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated when you don't even use the product in question.

Well I am and I have to say that I was supriced to see that comment too. It is getting a bit on the low side if you blame everything and anything and step away from responsibility as soon as there are a negative comment regarding AOS 4.x. In this case it was rather silly I must say. This is what I've a big problem with and I won't change my mind about it no matter for how long you ban me. Instead of doing that you should realize that it was silly to put it in a kind way. OR you could explain what has changed and why it isn't working.

Are you gonna continue down this path every time someone reports an issue? I can tell you if you haven't figured it out, it won't work and you will lose costumers. My foot is halfway out the door and I'm sure that I'm not the only one fealing this way.

If things doesn't improve that is how it is going to end. You don't have to be a psychic to realise that, you just need to use your brain. Common sense.

[HotRod]

I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated when you don't even use the product in question.

Oh and if you still don't understan you can send me an e-mail or PM me and I can give it to you and explain how bad the situation is and why. I actually got a lot to say about it.

I feal that it is high time because this whole situation is getting out of hand and maybe you should realise that before you sitt there with two users left and only developers.

[danwood]

I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated when you don't even use the product in question.

Ssolie and the other OS4 developers and beta-testers were very helpful, as he has said, my (and I suspect the other users with MUI) issues turned out to be a rogue install of some MUI libraries in LIBS:.  It's likely some third party installer that we installed was to blame for this, nothing to do with the os4 team, after removing these I can confirm MUI update 3 works fine.  I suspect we'll hear similar reports from other users with MUI issues tomorrow.

[Matt_H]

Ssolie and the other OS4 developers and beta-testers were very helpful, as he has said, my (and I suspect the other users with MUI) issues turned out to be a rogue install of some MUI libraries in LIBS:.  It's likely some third party installer that we installed was to blame for this, nothing to do with the os4 team, after removing these I can confirm MUI update 3 works fine.  I suspect we'll hear similar reports from other users with MUI issues tomorrow.

Which classes were responsible, or what program installed those bad classes so we can be aware of it?

[danwood]

Which classes were responsible, or what program installed those bad classes so we can be aware of it?

It seems there was a version of muimaster.library in LIBS: which the system was defaulting to over the one in MUI:  likely some badly designed program installer put it there.  Not sure which app did it, the files dated from 2005-2008, other mui libraries were in there including drawers for OS 3/4/MOS too inside libs/mui, the files had MagicWB icons too.  Easiest way is just to

delete libs:mui#?

[takemehomegrandma]

I do not appreciate being personally attacked and my work berated

I am absolutely convinced that I am not the only one looking at your performance, and the state of your work you released, in exactly the way I described. You want appreciation? Earn it!

when you don't even use the product in question.

I will never again use OS4.x.x, that's for sure, but that doesn't stop me from being interested in it and follow its "development". I will continue to do so, thank you very much.

[Minuous]

And the link for the updated NDK is...?

[Fats]

If things doesn't improve that is how it is going to end. You don't have to be a psychic to realise that, you just need to use your brain. Common sense.

I don't buy it. You claim to be interested in OS4 cause. I don't see how humiliating people in public who devote their time to working on it can help in that.

greets,
Staf.

[paolone]

OT

Windows users have gone through similar (not so little) routines, Vista RTM requires that you install some patches, then SP1, then some more patches, then SP2, etc (the procedure takes hours).  I really wish Microsoft would come up with a "catch all updates in one go, apply them and reboot" routine as getting Vista (just as an example) up-to-date can be a real pain.  Of course with Vista it is possible simply to install Vista SP2 on a blank disk, but not everyone has access to the latest media to do that (or knows how to do streamlined Windows install discs).

If you ignore how Windows and Microsoft updates work, it's neither Vista nor Microsoft fault. If you knew how they work, you'd also knew that you can:

1) download every update file you need from here:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/current.aspx

2) place all the msu files you need in a directory

3) launch them with a simple line or script from a command prompt like this:
for %%I in (*.msu) do wusa %%I /quiet /norestart

In the end, you can restart the system if you like (that's what you should do anyway, to actually apply the changes).


Edit: ah, I also forgot. You can even integrate services packs and drivers into a older Vista / Windows Server installation disc using a procedure called "slipstream".

/OT

[Karlos]

I will never again use OS4.x.x, that's for sure, but that doesn't stop me from being interested in it and follow its "development". I will continue to do so, thank you very much.

Out of curiosity, what exactly is your interest in the project? I only ask because you only seem be interested in slating it and everybody involved with it, whatever their capacity, at every possible opportunity. Rarely is there any OS4 related topic that crops up here without such a post from yourself. This my observation and opinion, not a moderation statement, so don't get all panicky and cry "foul mod" just yet.

You know, there was a time when the old BAFs used to constantly deride MorphOS. They were never justified in doing so IMHO, as it's clearly a finely implemented and mature Amiga-compatible OS. It would be blatantly untrue to suggest otherwise yet they persisted. Consequently I always found those zealous users that did so, clearly for the sake of it, to be insufferable idiots.

Sound familiar?

Just sayin'...