AmigaOne X1000 booting AmigaOS4.1 Update 3

[magnetic]

Agree regarding how the video only essentially gave people nits to pick about the machine.  At the very least, it would have taken 2 minutes to add a text disclaimer "slow booting due to debug code" or similar.  I would expect it to boot up just as quick as my SAM does once it's released.  Or simply release such a video when it actually boots to OS in seconds rather than essentially minutes, lol.
.

Well I do agree with you somewhat as far as the vid being "bad"  There are some factors


1. This guy posting this is a tech for Amikit. Just for him to take the time to get the cam going and digitize the footage, edit it and post it up is a plus. I'm sure the guy is crazy busy.

2. It was not an attempt at a promo vid, just to show it working.

3. Hyperion or their partner should have already had a pro video out about this system. Especially after all that silly "What is X" hype.


**EDIT*** This just in

  Chris apologized for the quality, but he only had time to run off a quick video in between setting up and testing Nemo 2.1 motherboards. He has promised to produce another video showing AmigaOS4 running various demos when he has more time.

[spirantho]

Spirantho, you are half right. As far as the non techies you have a point. As far as the developers that are posting, these people dont spread FUD they spread TRUTH. Its their opinion.

If they as developers don't realise that the speed of debug code is not representative of that of a release build then I fear for their code!

There is some genuine concern I can see but also some blatant FUD in this thread!

[magnetic]

spirantho

ok fair enough lets look at this "FUD" term ppl on these boards throw around a lot

F ear  Hmm I dont think anyone is 'afraid' of anything

U ncertainty   Yes plenty of that on this project

D oubt  Again much of that

So I guess you are almost right about "FUD"

[Lurch]

Very slow at booting. TBH my Windows 7 machine boots faster :-) Was surprised as I've seen amiga os 4.0 booting on older hardware faster :-/

Hopefully just a bug/beta issue. But keen on getting one.

[koaftder]

I can see that some non-technical people may not understand the development cycle and may genuinely believe that.  Some people in this thread I'm sure DO know it, and realise that what they are saying is a nugget of purest FUD.

Remember, this is a beta test system.
It will have serial debug output, probably at 9600 baud.
It could easily be tracking every single call to every single library, and dumping the text at that speed, which could take about 6mS.

That means after just 1000 calls, you'd have a 6 second delay.

Now tell me again how that is at all indicative of the final non-debug speed of the system, please!

:roflmao:

If you had to hang on spooling out text to a serial port clocked at 9600 baud to print out a message *every* time a library call was made you would wind up with a completely unusable system.

[spirantho]

If you had to hang on spooling out text to a serial port clocked at 9600 baud to print out a message *every* time a library call was made you would wind up with a completely unusable system.

Exactly! so if you only log say 10% of your calls then you still end up with what appears to be a very slow system, which is what we see here.

Q.E.D.

[koaftder]

3. Hyperion or their partner should have already had a pro video out about this system. Especially after all that silly "What is X" hype.

I seriously doubt they have anything worth showing. The only seriously redeeming feature a NG Amiga system that would impress anyone would be an absurdly fast boot time. Press the button, wait a couple of seconds and bam, there's the desktop. It's not like there's a whole hell of a lot going on in there. If they could show that, they would have.

All these excuses about it being a debug build responsible for the machine running like utter crap is just lame. There must be some really atrocious code flung together to get this running on the pa6t.

[koaftder]

Exactly! so if you only log say 10% of your calls then you still end up with what appears to be a very slow system, which is what we see here.

Q.E.D.

I can't think of anything more useless than lobbing a bunch of printf's to the serial port for debugging. That's bush league stuff. The processor has a JTAG interface for that kind of thing.


That's probably what that 16 pin header in the middle is for.

Here's a product that makes use of it:
http://www.abatron.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/products/pdf/ManGdbPA6-3000.pdf

[spirantho]

All these excuses about it being a debug build responsible for the machine running like utter crap is just lame. There must be some really atrocious code flung together to get this running on the pa6t.

A debug build will always be slower, that's not an excuse that's a reason.

These are BETA builds, not release. They have debugging kernels.

If you don't believe me I challenge you to ask any kernel or os developer how fast their beta, debug, serial output enabled machines ran.

That's my last comment, not getting into an argument here.

Oh,
fear: telling people the machine will not come out.
uncertainty: making people think that the machine really might be booting that slow for a reason other than debug code
doubt: making people doubt the abilities of the writers.

A lot of FUD in this thread.

Just in case I get accused of being an OS4 fanboy, I actually run OS4,MorphOS and AROS.

[koaftder]

A debug build will always be slower, that's not an excuse that's a reason.

These are BETA builds, not release. They have debugging kernels.

If you don't believe me I challenge you to ask any kernel or os developer how fast their beta, debug, serial output enabled machines ran.

The reason debug builds are slower is because they're compiled without optimization, but non optimized builds aren't that slow and this is a fast processor with gobs of ram and not starved for IO. The serial port has nothing to do with this. You wouldn't use the serial port to debug system code anyway.

[hardware geek]

I am surprise they didn't run it off a solid state hard drive. I know my wind 7 machine boot in under 30 secs. with one.

[AmigaNG]

Great vid AmigaKit and A-eon thanks for showing us some progress.

PS: cant be bothered with any one else, I realised in the Timberwolf progress thread which was derailed due to the infighting it best to just not feed the trolls and let them just get on with it, just for the record I'm a fan of all camps any one who has a interest in Amiga or Amiga'like system is ok with me (expect for when its a PC just happen to have more intrest in OS4 than morphos.

[wawrzon]

Remember, this is a beta test system.
It will have serial debug output, probably at 9600 baud.

testing aros68k on a range of 030 to 060 machines i get a serial debug on 115200, i dont get why a 2ghz machine could not do that. also on aros68k there is not the whole load of debug enabled as default of course, yet available as option. testing on slow machines would be a nightmare otherwise. so if i would now post a video of aros booting on an a4000 and someone would claim that it is slow, i couldnt put up serial debug as a sole execuse.

[Kesa]

Wrong. King Kong has the biggest balls in the animal kingdom. Standby for photos.

[HotRod]

I seriously doubt they have anything worth showing. The only seriously redeeming feature a NG Amiga system that would impress anyone would be an absurdly fast boot time. Press the button, wait a couple of seconds and bam, there's the desktop. It's not like there's a whole hell of a lot going on in there. If they could show that, they would have.

All these excuses about it being a debug build responsible for the machine running like utter crap is just lame. There must be some really atrocious code flung together to get this running on the pa6t.

If you've read up on some of the things they're planing there will be things to show. But really, what is there to show in AOS 3.x? Or in MOS? Or AROS for that matter, it boots fast...

I don't get more excited over the other options since they don't bring anything else from what AOS 4 got. AOS 3 got even less new programs and MOS... will there be a new 3D driver system? Printer drivers? Will you ever be able to run it on new hardware again? Even though cheap macs are nice in a way they will only feal modern for so long. They already lacks a HDMI port and the graphics cards are old. They will only be cheap and fast for a couple of years. The next Amiga (or amigalike) system that I'll buy got to be able to play a fullhd movie on my TV being connected with a HDMI cable and from I've read the X1000 will be able to do that. I know that my PowerMAC never will. I don't know about AROS, maybe it handles it but it got a long way to go still IMO.

The goal for me is to be able to do as much as possible with the Amiga to use the PC less since I enjoy AOS more. I don't know what goals others have but since the recent braging about OWB for MOS being able to display Youtube clips in a nice way it seems that it's the goal for MOS users too. An old powermac won't do for long though. The strong reactions that will come from this comment is because you know it's trues... sad but true.

The X1000 is the most exciting amiga ng project at the moment even if it's far from the original Amiga.

[Karlos]

Or is it just that KPrintF() wont return until the very last byte is transmitted to the serial port?

I would suspect that's quite likely. If it used any sort of asynchronous operation that depended on a background worker task pushing out messages from a queue it would be next to useless if any crash caused a lockup as you'd never know with any certainty that you'd got the last few messages and hence what actually caused it.

I can't think of anything more useless than lobbing a bunch of printf's to the serial port for debugging. That's bush league stuff. The processor has a JTAG interface for that kind of thing.

Yeah but let's be realistic, most beta-testers aren't going to have access to JTAG-based debugging tools, whereas most people can at least shove a serial line into something and capture the output.