Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: SCSI madness  (Read 13136 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rockape

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2005
  • Posts: 383
    • Show only replies by rockape
    • http://lincsamiga.org.uk/
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2011, 11:42:53 AM »
Hi commodorejohn,

For future reference.

See   http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/SCSI/SCSIExamples.html


Regards, Michael

aka rockape
"A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life wrote a blank check made payable to \'Their Country\' for an amount of \'up to and including their life\'.
 

Offline rockape

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2005
  • Posts: 383
    • Show only replies by rockape
    • http://lincsamiga.org.uk/
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2011, 11:43:44 AM »
Hi commodorejohn,

For future reference.

See   http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/SCSI/SCSIExamples.html


Regards, Michael

aka rockape
"A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life wrote a blank check made payable to \'Their Country\' for an amount of \'up to and including their life\'.
 

Offline freqmax

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2006
  • Posts: 2179
    • Show only replies by freqmax
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2011, 12:03:02 PM »
Some basic rules:

* Always have terminators at both ends of your physical bus-cable. No stubs!

Terminator--Device--Device--Device--Device--Terminator

* Check termination on the devices and their ID. Get hold of documentation. Ie NO device in the middle of the bus-cable may have their termination enabled.

* Beware of older devices that doesn't implement termination power with correct polarity. These devices has to have their bus-power disabled!

* Check that "parity enable" is set to the same on all devices. It's usually disabled.

* Controller is usually located at ID=7 but can vary.

* Highest ID have the highest priority. Except for wide-scsi where the priority is 7..0 and then 15..8.

* ID numbers only matters for software. So the numbering doesn't have to follow how the drives are physically attached.

Things that are nice about SCSI is that you can have many drives and the host interface can query them about just about anything. Sector ordering is consistent such that you can swap drives with friends. The electrical interface is consistent and electrically sound. SCSI drives usually have much higher build quality. Track-reordering makes it faster. It's even possible to let one controller boot from another controller if one wishes to do so ;), or have more than one controller use the same disc. On the host side, transfers are usually implemented with DMA and other efficient means etc..
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 12:13:20 PM by freqmax »
 

Offline smerf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 1666
    • Show only replies by smerf
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2011, 01:04:40 AM »
Quote from: rockape;633360
Hi commodorejohn,

For future reference.

See   http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/SCSI/SCSIExamples.html


Regards, Michael

aka rockape


Hi,

@Rockape,

Why Thank You,

Even if I do know a little about scsi's this page will be worth copying and putting in my documentation drives for future reference.

At my age it is good to have reference's, after all I can't remember anything at my age.

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

MorphOS is a MAC done a little better
 

Offline amigadave

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 3836
    • Show only replies by amigadave
    • http://www.EfficientByDesign.org
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2011, 04:27:01 AM »
SCSI is so much better than IDE.  It does not surprise me that the original posters problem turned out to be user error, as 9 times out of 10 it usually is.  I have SCSI on almost all of my Amiga computers, even my A1200 w/Blizzard 1260 and have not had hardly any problems with any of them, except the SCSI wide controller on both of my Cyberstorm PPC accelerators.  I am still working on getting them setup correctly so I can enjoy the speed that they provide above and beyond any Amiga IDE controller I have ever read about.  (and I am with Smerf regarding having things written down, or printed out, as age surely has a way of blurring the memory)
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline mechy

Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2011, 01:48:54 PM »
Quote from: amigadave;633840
SCSI is so much better than IDE.  It does not surprise me that the original posters problem turned out to be user error, as 9 times out of 10 it usually is.  I have SCSI on almost all of my Amiga computers, even my A1200 w/Blizzard 1260 and have not had hardly any problems with any of them, except the SCSI wide controller on both of my Cyberstorm PPC accelerators.  I am still working on getting them setup correctly so I can enjoy the speed that they provide above and beyond any Amiga IDE controller I have ever read about.  (and I am with Smerf regarding having things written down, or printed out, as age surely has a way of blurring the memory)

I agree,SCSI is one of the best standards on amiga.Very few people realize or mention It uses very little cpu when transferring(on proper scsi controllers) compared to ide. FastATA just sucks the life out of a cpu especially in higher modes.SCSI is the most versitile thing on amiga and scsi on the accelerator is the best way to go. Cyberstorm MKIII/PPC UWscsi absolutely rocks when it comes to speed. SCSI is very simple to use once you learn a little about it.
 

Offline Franko

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5707
    • Show only replies by Franko
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2011, 04:01:17 PM »
Quote from: mechy;633892
I agree,SCSI is one of the best standards on amiga.Very few people realize or mention It uses very little cpu when transferring(on proper scsi controllers) compared to ide. FastATA just sucks the life out of a cpu especially in higher modes.SCSI is the most versitile thing on amiga and scsi on the accelerator is the best way to go. Cyberstorm MKIII/PPC UWscsi absolutely rocks when it comes to speed. SCSI is very simple to use once you learn a little about it.


While I agree with you that SCSI is a far better standard when it come to speed on the Amiga when compared to IDE, you have to remember a couple of things though... :)

Firstly SCSI HD are obsolete, no one has manufactured SCSI HDs for at least the past 2 years now... :)

Secondly I reckon most folk will be using a desktop A500/A600 or A1200 in comparison to the amount of folk using Big Box Amigas (A3000/A4000 etc..) and in which case IDE is the easier route to go... :)

Gotta disagree with you on your comment that "FastATA sucks the life out of a CPU" on an 030 or 060 accelerated A1200 either loading or saving big files for example an 8.2GB DVD ISO there is no real slowdown in system performance that prevent or hinders you in any way from doing something else at the same time... :)

Not so true for the 4xEIDE Buffered Interface but then it's nowhere near as fast or good as the FastATA boards... :)

SCSI is fine for big box Amigas but when the remaining stock of SCSI HDs run out then you are going to be limited to second hand/ used HDs in future but the same will soon become true for IDE HDs as by the end of this year all the major manufacturers are phasing IDE HDs out too in favour of SATA... :(
 

Offline Zac67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2004
  • Posts: 2890
    • Show only replies by Zac67
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2011, 06:48:56 PM »
Quote from: Franko;633916
Firstly SCSI HD are obsolete, no one has manufactured SCSI HDs for at least the past 2 years now... :)
As is IDE... We live in SATA, USB & SAS world now.
btw: you can still buy new SCSI drives (Seagate, Toshiba).

Quote
Secondly I reckon most folk will be using a desktop A500/A600 or A1200 in comparison to the amount of folk using Big Box Amigas (A3000/A4000 etc..) and in which case IDE is the easier route to go... :)
Easier? Possibly. Better? No way. Especially on low power machine SCSI shines. Additionally, SCSI drives are (were) generally of higher quality than most IDE and may be expected to have a longer service life.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 06:52:16 PM by Zac67 »
 

Offline Franko

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5707
    • Show only replies by Franko
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2011, 07:00:57 PM »
Quote from: Zac67;633953
As is IDE... We live in SATA, USB & SAS world now.


Easier? Possibly. Better? No way. Especially on low power machine SCSI shines. Additionally, SCSI drives are (were) generally of higher quality than most IDE and may be expected to have a longer service life.

I already pointed out that IDE was being phased out too... ;)

Quote
all the major manufacturers are phasing IDE HDs out too in favour of SATA... :)

As for Easier, yup we do agree on that but when it comes to which is better then I have to disagree there, you pay for what you get I've seen some pretty naff SCSI HDs in my time (noisy and prone to wearing out) mostly IBM ones back in the late 80's... :)

Just noticed your edit...

Yes you can still buy brand new SCSI drives but these are remaining stock nothing new has been manufactured for just over 2 years now... :)

As for going the SATA/USB route that manufacturers have opted for, pretty useless for folk that use the Amiga and the quality of them seems to me to be far worse than either SCSI or IDE... :(

Since June of last year I've had to put in my second brand new SATA 500GB HD in this iMac and after only 14 months I had to replace the SATA HD in my Hyundi Media Player/Recorder box... :(

If that's the quality of SATA drives I'll stick where possible with IDE and stock up on IDE drives to last me the rest of my days... :)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 07:03:07 PM by Franko »
 

Offline nicholas

Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2011, 07:24:23 PM »
SATA to SCSI adapters are the bees knees for big box miggies.

On my 1200 wedge I use an SDHC to 44pin IDE adapter which is both silent and fast. Cheap too.
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline Franko

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5707
    • Show only replies by Franko
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2011, 07:27:49 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;633959
SATA to SCSI adapters are the bees knees for big box miggies.

On my 1200 wedge I use an SDHC to 44pin IDE adapter which is both silent and fast. Cheap too.


While I like the idea behind these solid state devices, you can hardly call them cheap in comparison to an HD when you need at least 500GB of space, cost a pretty penny to put one of those together (if you can even find one that can cope with that amount of SD cards that is)... ;)
 

Offline nicholas

Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2011, 07:32:10 PM »
Quote from: Franko;633960
While I like the idea behind these solid state devices, you can hardly call them cheap in comparison to an HD when you need at least 500GB of space, cost a pretty penny to put one of those together (if you can even find one that can cope with that amount of SD cards that is)... ;)


A 4GB class 6 card is plenty big enough for the runt of my litter! :)

Can a CS060 Mk2 take a 2TB drive? My A4000 needs a drive upgrade.
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline mechy

Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2011, 07:38:14 PM »
Quote from: Franko;633916
While I agree with you that SCSI is a far better standard when it come to speed on the Amiga when compared to IDE, you have to remember a couple of things though... :)

Firstly SCSI HD are obsolete, no one has manufactured SCSI HDs for at least the past 2 years now... :)

Secondly I reckon most folk will be using a desktop A500/A600 or A1200 in comparison to the amount of folk using Big Box Amigas (A3000/A4000 etc..) and in which case IDE is the easier route to go... :)

Gotta disagree with you on your comment that "FastATA sucks the life out of a CPU" on an 030 or 060 accelerated A1200 either loading or saving big files for example an 8.2GB DVD ISO there is no real slowdown in system performance that prevent or hinders you in any way from doing something else at the same time... :)

Not so true for the 4xEIDE Buffered Interface but then it's nowhere near as fast or good as the FastATA boards... :)

SCSI is fine for big box Amigas but when the remaining stock of SCSI HDs run out then you are going to be limited to second hand/ used HDs in future but the same will soon become true for IDE HDs as by the end of this year all the major manufacturers are phasing IDE HDs out too in favour of SATA... :(


Well, scsi hard drives are still manufactured today. Just because a person uses a A500 or 1200 doesnt mean he/she may not also use a blizzard with scsi.Were were talking about better not easier. There are thousands of servers world wide that use the older 68/80 pin drives. these are backward compatible.A quick search on ebay alone brings up tons as well as pricewatch and other places.even if they were'nt making them i have solved this with the 50 pin scsi to CF card readers which allow you to use Compact flash cards as scsi hard drives with no adapters.

I never said you couldn't do stuff,i was meaning the fast ATA uses alot of cpu time,especially in the higher modes..try it,kick it up in the higher pio4 or other modes and see what it uses on large transfers. This doesn't bother you because you haven't ever bothered to have your machine on the net. I actually use mine everyday for internet stuff-its not uncommon for me to be downloading gigs of stuff while browsing and such or .Now if its just gaming,then load times wont matter much.Try the blizzard 1260 with scsi in synchronous mode(up to 10MB/s) and compare the results with your fast ATA.

the 4x buffer boards of course are not worth mentioning,because they still rely on the stock ide.

SCSI is fine for ANY amiga,it really shines on the lower spec machines.
 

Offline Franko

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5707
    • Show only replies by Franko
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2011, 07:38:22 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;633962
A 4GB class 6 card is plenty big enough for the runt of my litter! :)

Can a CS060 Mk2 take a 2TB drive? My A4000 needs a drive upgrade.


The only file system I know that can cope with 2TB drive is SmartFileSystem which I use on my Towered A1200. I've used a 1TB drive on it with no problems but now use 2 500GB drives as I borrowed it's 1TB drive for my Media Player/Recorder box... :)

Dunno if the latest release of PFS3 can cope with drives this big but SmartFileSystem has in theory a 64TB limit but I don't know of anyone who's tried this... :)
 

Offline Franko

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5707
    • Show only replies by Franko
Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2011, 07:45:22 PM »
Quote from: mechy;633963
Well, scsi hard drives are still manufactured today.

Not according to CPC/Farnel or Seagate themselves, I've spoken to them on a few occasions in the past 2 years and according to them NO-ONE manufactures SCSI HDs anymore and the last production run was around March 2009 and Seagate's last Production run of IDE drives is scheduled for the end of this year in favour of SATA... :)

Give Seagate's technical dept a call and enquire yourself but I reckon the manufacturer should know best just what is still being produced... ;)

PS: I always run in PIO4 on the Amiga and even on reading/writing 8GB DVD ISO files there is no great slowdown in the performance of the Amigas multi tasking... :) (I can even got upto PIO5 with the DVD burners but they then become prone to errors when writing...;)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 07:48:44 PM by Franko »
 

Offline Damion

Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #29 from previous page: April 27, 2011, 08:14:47 PM »
Quote
S: I always run in PIO4 on the Amiga and even on reading/writing 8GB DVD ISO files there is no great slowdown in the performance of the Amigas multi tasking... (I can even got upto PIO5 with the DVD burners but they then become prone to errors when writing...


Interesting. What kind of results to you get with the FastATA running the RSCP benchmark? My TekMagic for example approaches 10MB/s while leaving 98-99% CPU free.