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Offline commodorejohnTopic starter

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SCSI madness
« on: April 24, 2011, 01:07:08 AM »
I swear to God, if I ever meet the guy who invented this damn standard I'm going to throttle him. Here's the deal: I have an Amiga 3000 that came with:

* A 50MB Quantum Prodrive LPS as SCSI ID 1
* A 4.5GB Seagate Barracuda ST34572N as SCSI ID 4

I have an 850MB Quantum Trailblazer I'd like to replace the ProDrive with (currently set as SCSI ID 2,) but I want to copy the files from the ProDrive to the Trailblazer so's I don't lose the WB3.5 install the computer came with. Problem is, SCSI is Deep Magic and it seems like every time I get one thing working another stops.

Currently, it doesn't seem to recognize any of the drives alone or in combination, despite the fact that it all of them are in perfectly funcitonal condition. I've tried enabling and disabling termination on the Trailblazer (the others don't have a jumper for it,) I've tried fiddling around with SCSI IDs, I've tried swapping positions on the cable - nothing.

The hard drive LED on the computer does a very soft blink like it's being turned on very briefly and then off for longer periods, but it doesn't show any actual hard drive activity. (In some configurations it comes on solid and just stays that way.) The boot menu and HDToolbox don't show any of the drives as being connected besides DF0. The Barracuda goes through its normal spin-up and initial chatter, as does the Trailblazer, but the ProDrive does it spin-up and then a brief bit of quieter chatter than usual.

I am completely lost here. I don't understand anything about why SCSI does or doesn't work in whichever configurations - all I want is just to get the ProDrive and the Trailblazer to work together first, and then the Trailblazer and the Barracuda after. Can anybody help me figure this out?
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline Darrin

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2011, 01:24:53 AM »
As someone who always seems to tear his hair out with regards to SCSI, I have one thing to say on this matter:  Buddha IDE controller or FastATA if you have extra spare cash.

You can prep and format your new IDE drive after booting from your SCSI drive (with PFS3) and then copy the contents over and keep your SCSI drive as a backup.
A2000, A3000, 2 x A1200T, A1200, A4000Tower & Mediator, CD32, VIC-20, C64, C128, C128D, PET 8032, Minimig & ARM, C-One, FPGA Arcade... and AmigaOne X1000.
 

Offline commodorejohnTopic starter

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2011, 01:26:28 AM »
Not really an option at the moment - I've already dropped a bit more on this than I should right now, and besides, I've got these perfectly good drives that I'd hate to see go to waste.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline Darrin

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2011, 01:41:07 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;633309
Not really an option at the moment - I've already dropped a bit more on this than I should right now, and besides, I've got these perfectly good drives that I'd hate to see go to waste.


Fair enough.

I just have draws full of IDE hard drives, CD/DVD ROM drives and ZIP drives.  :)
A2000, A3000, 2 x A1200T, A1200, A4000Tower & Mediator, CD32, VIC-20, C64, C128, C128D, PET 8032, Minimig & ARM, C-One, FPGA Arcade... and AmigaOne X1000.
 

Offline commodorejohnTopic starter

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2011, 02:31:10 AM »
Aaaand after a full afternoon of dicking around with this, I discovered that the cable had popped out of the socket on the motherboard end D:

Only on SCSI could the symptoms be so inconclusive that I didn't even notice...
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline smerf

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2011, 03:08:34 AM »
Hi,
@CommodoreJohn,

I am a little groggy just woke up from a 3 hour nap, but here goes I will try to explain how a scsi system works.

First thing to remember is that a scsi system alway starts with the number 0 and on all Amiga systems ends with 6. That is 7 items that you can have hooked up at once, but scsi 0 is always the scsi card.

So here we go

scsi 0 = card
scsi 1 = scsi item 1
scsi 2 = scsi item 2

etc. etc to scsi item 6.

Now all your scsi items are in a chain that is they all hook up and go
scsi 0, scsi 1,  scsi 2, scsi 3, scsi 4, scsi 5, scsi 6.

Now comes the difficult part, the last scsi item must be terminated (I usually set one scsi item as 6 and make sure it has the termination bars in it.

OK, first thing is get on the internet if you are using a computer that can get you there, type in the number of your drive (mine is a conner CFP2107S) download the spec sheet of your drive and keep it in a book or safe place.  You will need this sheet badly, on there it tells you how to set up the drive numbers, where the terminators are etc.

Now like I said I always set one item up as scsi item 6, by scsi item I mean hard drives, scanners, draw tablets, CD/DVD players, scanners internal & external drives (hard drives or floppy) and this one is always terminated, now you can terminate at 4 or 3 but I like 6 because I have a zip drive that is either set at 1 or 6 and has the termination bars set in a settable switch and I ususally use this device as my 6 scsi.

Now what are termination bars, in my conner they are 2 little red bars by the ribbon cable plug on the top end of the hard drive circuit card. Like I said you will need your spec sheets on the item to find out where they are, if they are not the last item in your scsi string they must be pulled. Now when you pull them I have a freezer bag that I put them in and I mark the bag with from what scsi hard drive they came from and my bag is usually big enough to put my scsi spec sheet in with it. (I have about 15 scsi items). Now find a box and put your bag in there. Now if you don't have or lost these terminators, you can usually find them at Amigakit, or some of your electronic parts magazines.

Now:

Make the last item in the string have terminators (mine is usually set at 6)
Make sure all terminators are pulled from your middle drives.

Now your Commodore Mother boards are listed as scsi item 0, and in the back of the board are terminator strips, (you usually have to pull your Amiga 3000 apart to find them, Commodore had very poor engineers with the foresight of a piss ant, or else like every other thing they wanted to make it built so you would take it in and have them do it (but I think all their engineers just had the fore sight of a piss ant but I think all engineers are like that since I have to work with them every day)).

OK any questions just ask

smerf
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Offline commodorejohnTopic starter

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2011, 03:47:26 AM »
Well, I've actually got it working now - it was pretty much just the issue of the cable having popped. Bleargh...
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline runequester

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2011, 04:02:47 AM »
well, I really appreciated that SCSI guide :)
 

Offline smerf

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2011, 04:42:28 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;633316
Well, I've actually got it working now - it was pretty much just the issue of the cable having popped. Bleargh...


Hi,

OH YEAH!!

I forgot to mention always have your data cables plugged in and in external drives it also saves a lot of problems if it is plugged in to an outlet.

Just kidding

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

MorphOS is a MAC done a little better
 

Offline Amigoat

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2011, 05:51:50 AM »
Hi Smerf -

generally agree with your guide on SCSI except that the Amiga narrow type SCSI handles 8 devices not 7. The 8th device is the controller having SCSI ID of 7. As I recall Commodore always (sometimes?) set the hard drive to device 6.

I know the order doesn't matter but I always set my system hard drive to device 0 and the ZIP drive to device 6.

Amigoat
 

Offline smerf

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2011, 05:59:58 AM »
Quote from: Amigoat;633328
Hi Smerf -

generally agree with your guide on SCSI except that the Amiga narrow type SCSI handles 8 devices not 7. The 8th device is the controller having SCSI ID of 7. As I recall Commodore always (sometimes?) set the hard drive to device 6.

I know the order doesn't matter but I always set my system hard drive to device 0 and the ZIP drive to device 6.

Amigoat


HMMM!

Didn't know that, I just go by the old Adaptec boards for the PC. I know the older new Adaptec boards go up the 16 devices with the board being 0.

Thanks for the info
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

MorphOS is a MAC done a little better
 

Offline Damion

Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2011, 06:26:53 AM »
Quote from: Amigoat;633328
Hi Smerf -

generally agree with your guide on SCSI except that the Amiga narrow type SCSI handles 8 devices not 7. The 8th device is the controller having SCSI ID of 7. As I recall Commodore always (sometimes?) set the hard drive to device 6.

I know the order doesn't matter but I always set my system hard drive to device 0 and the ZIP drive to device 6.

Amigoat

If quickest booting is important, you might set the hard disk to the next highest priority after the host adapter, then the "last device" flag set in the drive's RDB to abort scanning the SCSI chain and skip straight to booting. It might require some experiementing - I've found not all systems scan the same direction. :-/ I can't recall which way the A3000 SCSI does it.

BTW - I love an Amiga with a good SCSI controller. Kicks the p*ss out of IDE any day. I used to copy CDs on my A2000 (TekMagic SCSI) between 2 PlexWriters, took maybe 4 or 5 minutes per disc and you could still read and write from the hard drive, run IBrowse or ShapeShifter, etc, like nothing else was going on. :-)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 06:38:43 AM by Damion »
 

Offline lost_loven

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2011, 08:15:39 AM »
just a side note, i had use scsi prefs ( off aminet) and delay the timing so it gave time for the hard drive to spin up before my a3k booted up.. then my hard drive worked.. (beside setting my terminations and id's right)

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Offline Zac67

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2011, 10:14:04 AM »
Quote from: Damion;633334
I've found not all systems scan the same direction. :-/ I can't recall which way the A3000 SCSI does it.


The 3k scans bottom up (0 through 6). I've got my HDD on ID1, so I can hook up a drive on ID0 and have it automounted w/o fiddling around.

btw: all narrow SCSI drives I've seen provide a way to turn on/off the termination option. Old drives require you to add/remove the terminator packs, newer drives with active terminators got a jumper.
However, more modern LVD/SE drives (U2W+) have no termination options any more.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 10:18:28 AM by Zac67 »
 

Offline rockape

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Re: SCSI madness
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2011, 11:42:53 AM »
Hi commodorejohn,

For future reference.

See   http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/SCSI/SCSIExamples.html


Regards, Michael

aka rockape
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