Amount of MorphOS copies sold

[HenryCase]

Oh wait...maybe that was your point.

My point was that if takemehomegrandma's assumption about MorphOS having double the number of active users was correct, it would be reasonable to assume that you'd see more discussion surrounding it (not necessarily double, but something close to it). I'm aware there are cross-platform sites, but the vast majority of discussion about usage of MorphOS isn't found here, it's found on morphzone.org.

So the question becomes, if you do have double the users, why are there fewer discussions surrounding it? Seems to me we have a different definition about what 'active' users means.

[number6]

My point was that if takemehomegrandma's assumption about MorphOS having double the number of active users was correct, it would be reasonable to assume that you'd see more discussion surrounding it (not necessarily double, but something close to it). I'm aware there are cross-platform sites, but the vast majority of discussion about usage of MorphOS isn't found here, it's found on morphzone.org.

So the question becomes, if you do have double the users, why are there fewer discussions surrounding it? Seems to me we have a different definition about what 'active' users means.

I'm not dismissing what you have to say, but TMHG's last paragraph, imo, is entirely valid.
When you take into account mailing lists, public irc channels (where you -can- sense activity), private irc channels (where you can not unless you are invited), private irc conversations between 2 individuals...it all adds up.
Analyzing the true activity is also subjective as well. If a private channel is discussing sports vs discussing their operating system of choice, then is it "active"?. Heh.

#6

[HenryCase]

I'm sorry, but that's bollocks. I don't deny that there might exist one or two OS4 users who won't bother (for whatever reason), but not very many on top of that.

Again, you base this on what?  Let's look at the download numbers for mui-owb:
http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=network/browser/muiowb.lha
1320 downloads, and this is downloads for a single version, no upgrades. Let's use your 'divide by 2' method to take into account the multi-system users, which gives us 660. Bit different from your 300 users estimate eh.

...but I sincerely doubt that however. There is nothing that speaks in favor of that.

Okay, let's compare the development activity that's happened for MorphOS and AROS over the last 2 years. How has MorphOS developed in this time, what features has it gained or refined?

I'm sorry, but that's a terrible instrument of measurement, utterly useless, it's impossible draw one single conclusion from that.

It's interesting that you dismiss one way to analyse active users, but cling onto others when it fits in with your world view (MorphOS registrations and Timberwolf downloads). Here's a challenge for you, find me all the MorphOS discussions on amiga.org and amigaworld.net for last week, and I'll do the same for OS4, I guarantee you that the MorphOS discussions will be less frequent.

[HenryCase]

I'm not dismissing what you have to say, but TMHG's last paragraph, imo, is entirely valid.
When you take into account mailing lists, public irc channels (where you -can- sense activity), private irc channels (where you can not unless you are invited), private irc conversations between 2 individuals...it all adds up.
Analyzing the true activity is also subjective as well. If a private channel is discussing sports vs discussing their operating system of choice, then is it "active"?. Heh.

#6

AROS has mailing lists, IRC channels, etc... as does OS4 (perhaps less so with the mailing lists). Forum activity represent a fraction of the total discussions, I agree with that, but they can still illuminate the general trend for activity. MorphOS has a nice advantage in that the cost to start using it is cheaper than OS4, which of course helps with impulse purchases, but how many of those impulse purchasers then use it regularly. That seems to be a valid question to make if we're talking about 'active' users rather than just 'users' in a looser sense.

[number6]

AROS has mailing lists, IRC channels, etc... as does OS4 (perhaps less so with the mailing lists). Forum activity represent a fraction of the total discussions, I agree with that, but they can still illuminate the general trend for activity. MorphOS has a nice advantage in that the cost to start using it is cheaper than OS4, which of course helps with impulse purchases, but how many of those impulse purchasers then use it regularly. That seems to be a valid question to make if we're talking about 'active' users rather than just 'users' in a looser sense.

I don't know why, but I can throw in another variable here. Perhaps we can call it website allegiance or website familiarity and the comfort that offers.

The OS4 team has been trying to move postings (for purposes of support) to the Hyperion specific product forums.
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/

Why doesn't everyone who is a customer follow the prompts from devs and testers to do so?
Imo, many folks see AW and Amiga.org very much like home, and are hesitant to sever themselves from that pleasant sense they get when they log into "home".

All I'm getting at with this comment is that there are other factors like the above, which I believe lead people to choose where to be active.

#6

[OlafS3]

First of all I have biggest respect for the MorphOS-Team and their achievements and good contacts even to "Core-developers" so I do not think that this discussion makes much sense because all camps are too small now and we should think about how to attract new users/developers and not who is the biggest between the three "dwarfes".

I see "activity" in the softwarebase and new entries and 68k is outnumbering all other camps by far (existing base and new entries). So i personal concentrate on attracting 68k developers/users for Aros by creating a new 68k based distribution. You can continue to discuss if you have more users than AOS but what does it help you? The question is is there a concept and ideas that offer a chance to grow or not and I see the momentum in Aros now with many projects now getting ready. I do not see that in MorphOS or AOS right now and I high much doubt your numbers (50 Aros-Users). That is wishful-thinking in my view.

[HenryCase]

All I'm getting at with this comment is that there are other factors like the above, which I believe lead people to choose where to be active.

#6

number6, I agree that discussion happens most freely in places that already have an active userbase. However, Amiga users from all camps are registered on the long established Amiga forums, and each have at least some semblance of regular activity.

My gripe was with the assumption that there are 2x the number of MorphOS users compared to OS4 and AROS combined. Should that be true, even if only a half of all MorphOS users used forums to communicate, we'd see equal levels of discussion. Since that's not the case, one of the following statements is true:

1. Less than half of all MorphOS users are regular forum users.
2. MorphOS doesn't have double the number of users after all.

I hope this makes sense.

[HenryCase]

I do not think that this discussion makes much sense because all camps are too small now and we should think about how to attract new users/developers and not who is the biggest between the three "dwarfes".

Bingo! I'm glad someone else understands.

[takemehomegrandma]

1320 downloads, and this is downloads for a single version, no upgrades. Let's use your 'divide by 2' method to take into account the multi-system users, which gives us 660. Bit different from your 300 users estimate eh.

No, sorry, still doesn't compute the way you wants; you are talking about aggregate statistics from a 6+ months period of time, during which many re-installations took place (OS4.1.3 did cause *major* problems for many users, of which many have more than one system, and many users probably made a clean re-install after the OS4.1.4 release as well, which *also* happened during this time). And then came OS4.1.5 for the X1000. How many X1000's are there? 100? 200? 300? I think it's fair to assume that 99%+ of those were sold to already existing OS4 users (accepting a $3,000 deal like that takes a certain amount of... ehm, "enthusiasm" (read: fanaticism)), and these systems got their share of that statistics as well. And there are definitely some Sam systems sold to existing OS4 users as well during this time (same as for the X1000: Few people outside the dedicated OS4 crowd would accept the Sam deal as well).

You would have to divide that number by a lot more than 2, but it's difficult (impossible!) to say by how much, since it's such a long period of time, in which way too many things happened that affects way too many parameters in way too unpredictable ways...

It's interesting that you dismiss one way to analyse active users

Because it's *not* a way of analyzing active users. You could as well go out counting the blades of grass in your front lawn, and use that as a base for your assumptions.

Look, it's obvious that the possibility of MorphOS having more users than OS4 is very sensitive/emotional for you. But please don't be naive.

The hardware situation for OS4 is hopeless. In comparison to MorphOS, it has *always* been hopeless. One option costs $3,000+ and offers very little (performance wise) over current MorphOS hardware, and has much to wish for when it comes to support in OS4. The other option costs $1,000+ and offers about the same performance as my Efika MX, costing 1/10th as much, and this one too isn't fully supported by the OS (or are the audio drivers ready now?)

This in "competition" (what competition, really...?) to the high quality, powerful and cheap Mac hardware that MorphOS has been running on since summer 2010. Mac Mini's for $100-$200, PowerMac's and eMac's for $20 and up. Good quality hardware, that runs circles around any Sam system, virtually *for free* (some eMac's and PowerMac's *are* actually for free, if you serch over time)! And downloading and trying out MorphOS costs exactly $0.00.

Is it really that inconceivable for you that this had its impact on amount of users for OS4 and MorphOS respectively since 2010?

And if we look at the previous generations of hardware, OS4 were in a similar underdog position in comparison to MorphOS when it came to hardware; the AmigaOne series of computers were always priced way much higher than the Pegasos2, they had worse CPU options, and they were crippled by the Articia S and bug-ridden by general design flaws. Is it really that inconceivable for you that this had its impact on amount of users for OS4 and MorphOS respectively?

And if we look at how long the two OS's have been "open for business", how long they have been here and able to attract users to their flocks; if I remember correctly, I got my first Pegasos 1 with MorphOS 1.0 in December 2001 (first public beta was released for Amiga computers in 02-Aug-2000). Then came and went 2002. Then came and went 2003. Then came 2004, and in the late spring/early summer, I was able to buy an AmigaOne XE with the first pre-release version of OS4. During all that time, where OS4 *simply didn't exist*, MorphOS was available to everyone wanting to try it out, it was constantly being developed, it evolved, moving its positions forward on every front. Is it really that inconceivable for you that this had its impact on amount of users for OS4 and MorphOS respectively?

And if we look at the qualities of the two OS's, MorphOS is the one with the best features, the most features, best stability, the original Amiga standards (like MUI, Poseidon USB, CGX, etc) in the very latest versions, not bundled in a "contrib" drawer, but *integrated* in the OS, and the one having the best Amiga compatibility (funny to see how even Hyperion's own games won't run on OS4, while working just fine on MorphOS), and for the last couple of years, it has been the only option having a modern and fully working web browser option. Is it really that inconceivable for you that this had its impact on amount of users for OS4 and MorphOS respectively?

MorphOS has always been ahead, it has been here longer, it has always had the better and the cheaper hardware. You are naive if you don't think this have had an impact during the last decade. The only thing OS4 can bring to the table that MorphOS can't, is a boing ball (TM). But maybe people aren't just as prepared to pay $3,000 (THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!) for that boing ball (TM) as you thought, only to be able to run an OS that has always been chasing MorphOS in its footsteps, a few miles back? Maybe money *does* matter to most people, even Amigans, and maybe performance and features *does* matter as well? Maybe (just maybe) all these things combined led to MorphOS having a bigger user base today? Shock! Horror!

I'm *not* claiming with certainty that things are this way, but I have tried putting up "educated guesses", assumptions and arguments, that at least are based on some kind of numbers/statistics. You think this is totally inconceivable, "it simply can't be true", yada yada, but your only argument for things *not* being this way, seems to be how much some people (of which many are MorphOS and AROS users) are chatting about today's weather, CUSA's evilness, DiscreetFX's latest press release, the endless debate on PPC vs. x86 or whatever, over at amigaworld.net... :rolleyes:

[takemehomegrandma]

we should think about how to attract new users/developers and not who is the biggest between the three "dwarfes".

/me raises hand eagerly: "I know the answer! I know the answer! Please let *me* answer! Since the X1000 means such a great jump in users for OS4 this must be the way to do it, but let's increase all variables to make it even more of a way forward for the platform, let's make a computer with *eight* cores for our Single CPU Only platform, using some aging CPU from an *even more dead* upstart of a company from the history books, with some bolted on 'Yihad' chip offering a 'Yorro' bus, costing... hmm, FOUR thousand dollars!!1!"

[eliyahu]

@TMHG

what on earth is with your obsession with OS4? i honestly think some MOS users talk more about OS4 than they do about their own platform on this site. can't you discuss the numbers in your own community without talking a bunch of smack about everybody else?

you and folks like you are a big reason morphOS turns me off. seriously. listen to amigadave; he knows what's talking about.

-- eliyahu

[HenryCase]

No, sorry, still doesn't compute the way you wants; you are talking about aggregate statistics from a 6+ months period of time, during which many re-installations took place (OS4.1.3 did cause *major* problems for many users, of which many have more than one system, and many users probably made a clean re-install after the OS4.1.4 release as well, which *also* happened during this time).

Again, how do you know? You're trying make big assumptions based on very little information.

Because it's *not* a way of analyzing active users. You could as well go out counting the blades of grass in your front lawn, and use that as a base for your assumptions.

So it's not an accurate way to analyse active users, yet the number of MorphOS serial key registrations is? Tell you what, go back to whomever handles the MorphOS registrations and ask them how many serial keys have been sent out through unique email addresses. That would let you improve the accuracy of your information.

Look, it's obvious that the possibility of MorphOS having more users than OS4 is very sensitive/emotional for you. But please don't be naive.

Doesn't bother me bub, I'm an AROS guy. What does bother me is your willingness to make bold claims without solid information to back it up. Hopefully you'll think twice next time.

Now, regardless of the numbers of users each platform has, we'd like to see those numbers increase, yes? So how about we put aside competing over small fry, and work together on going for the big fish. A rising tide lifts all boats, and all that.

[itix]

@iggy

Indeed... and there are over 7000 downloads for Basilisk II MorphOS port. It is five times more than there are Amiga users.

Generally when reading download stats it appears that on average OS4 and MorphOS software is getting similar download figures. So I would assume user bases are close to each others. No idea where AROS is going but it seems its user base is similar to MorphOS -- pretty quiet feet on earth people.

[itix]

That's your guess. Okay. Let's look at it another way. How active are the following forums:
http://www.amigans.net/
http://www.morphzone.org/modules/news/
http://aros-exec.org/

At the time of writing, 7 topics on amigans.net had posts from 'Today', 2 topics from morphzone.org had posts from '11-03-2012' (today's date), and 9 topics from aros-exec.org had posts from 'Today'. Your definition of active users may be different from mine, but seems unlikely to me that MorphOS users are that much quieter/less opinionated than OS4 and AROS users, seems much more likely to me that there are just fewer users who are actively involved with MorphOS. YMMV.

On the other hand when I was in Amiganoid 2011 event (my first Amiga event in 10 years so I keep repeating it) there were more OS4 machines demoed than AROS+MorphOS machines in total (also OS4 beta testers were exceeding number of AROS/MorphOS users there). So I wouldnt measure user base by its community activity or anything like that.

But I wouldnt claim MorphOS has more users than AROS and SO4 in total. It is completely wrong and also irrelevant when number of users is counted in hundreds.

[HenryCase]

But I wouldnt claim MorphOS has more users than AROS and SO4 in total. It is completely wrong and also irrelevant when number of users is counted in hundreds.

Exactly.

[itix]

1. Less than half of all MorphOS users are regular forum users.
2. MorphOS doesn't have double the number of users after all.

I hope this makes sense.

Both 1 and 2 are true.

In fact I know certain user on #amigaworld who is using MorphOS only since he sold all his OS4 machines. However he only posts about OS4, posts OS4 videos, promotes OS4 on every chance. He never asks anything about MorphOS nor posts about it.