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Author Topic: Possibly looking for 1260 card  (Read 9522 times)

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Offline Franko

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2011, 11:07:15 PM »
@Runequester

To be honest unless your going to be doing things other than playing games on the miggie then an 030 is your best bet, but then again things like AB3D, Breathless etc... do run a hell of a lot better with a properly set up 060 system... :)

Only ever came across one game using WHDLoad that wouldn't work properly on an 060 board and that was Pinball Fantasies AGA, never heard or came across the problem Damion speaks of when using WHDload & an 060 and I've tested and play thousands of them... :)

Only thing I would say if your still not sure about getting an 060 is if your going to use a lot of productivity software like PageStream, Final Writer, PPaint etc... then the difference is night & day when comparing an 30 & an 060... :)

The SubWay board is one of the handiest boards to add to an Amiga especially if you need to transfer a lot of file between the Amiga and a PC or MAC, but don't expect it to be of any use with a CD or DVD USB burner as it's way too slow to be used with one of those... :)

One of the best things to add to an 030 board for productivity software is an FPU but I'm not sure if you can do this on your board, but the speed increase with an FPU on an 030 can really make most productivity software come alive... :)
 

Offline ChaosLord

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2011, 11:22:23 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;615119
I have doubts about the claimed huge lead the '60 would have anyway.

There are no doubts.  A 500% speedup is impressive.

Quote
There are limits to how far you can push an Amiga, and when you're funneling all that power down through a much slower chipset the losses get pretty significant.
Luckily for him, the CPU does not funnel its power thru the chipset.

It funnels its power from FASTram through its L1 cache and into itself.

Quote
Why not just be satisfied that you already have one seriously fast Amiga and leave it at that?
Because his CPU is extremely seriously slow.  A 56Mhz 040 is 3x the speed of a crippled 030 from 1987.  An 060 is even faster than 040.

The 030 tries to run a 56Mhz cpu on 256 bytes of L1 instruction cache.  That is just silly.
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2011, 11:53:35 PM »
>There are no doubts. A 500% speedup is impressive.

5 times? No way. I doubt it. Prove that one with a benchmark. I'll even take a relatively invalid one like a mips figure.

And the chipset? All access to sound, graphics, hard drives? Still just as slow with either processor.

Not that any of this really matters because even a 66Mhz '060 in a 4000 is still a really slow processor.

66Mhz? The PCI bus in my G4 Mac runs at that.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline runequesterTopic starter

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2011, 11:58:17 PM »
well, comparisons to modern computers is a bit pointless :)


As far as my uses, Im pretty comfortable with how Final Writer and Dpaint V runs currently so not too much fuss
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 12:15:12 AM by runequester »
 

Offline Damion

Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2011, 12:19:54 AM »
Quote
And the chipset? All access to sound, graphics, hard drives? Still just as slow with either processor.


Exactly, in typical cases regarding the 1200 it's even *slower* with an '060 than an '030.

It makes sense if you're going to towerize it and go RTG, or must watch '060 AGA demos. Otherwise, leave it be and expand something with Zorro slots. Web browsing with AGA won't be $500 better with an '060... I had an 80MHz '060 in mine, the difference isn't what you would expect.

@Franko

Strange, no problem here with the 060 and Pinball Fantasies AGA. Overall WHDLoad has worked well for me on all processors, but the '030 presented the fewest issues.
 

Offline orb85750

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2011, 12:36:32 AM »
"Exactly, in typical cases regarding the 1200 it's even *slower* with an '060 than an '030."

What's wrong with the 060 that makes it *slower* than this 030?  Please explain.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2011, 01:12:22 AM »
Quote from: runequester;615144
well, comparisons to modern computers is a bit pointless :)


As far as my uses, Im pretty comfortable with how Final Writer and Dpaint V runs currently so not too much fuss



Comparisons between anything are pointless as long as the system you're using is up to the task of running the software you intend to use on it.

What would this mythical increase is speed give you that you don't already have?

And if its really bugging you, sit and wait for the Natami.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 01:15:30 AM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Franko

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2011, 01:13:56 AM »
Quote from: Damion;615150
Exactly, in typical cases regarding the 1200 it's even *slower* with an '060 than an '030.

It makes sense if you're going to towerize it and go RTG, or must watch '060 AGA demos. Otherwise, leave it be and expand something with Zorro slots. Web browsing with AGA won't be $500 better with an '060... I had an 80MHz '060 in mine, the difference isn't what you would expect.

@Franko

Strange, no problem here with the 060 and Pinball Fantasies AGA. Overall WHDLoad has worked well for me on all processors, but the '030 presented the fewest issues.


Having both type of processors sitting right here & up and running I'd say your claim that an 060 is slower "in typical cases" than an 030 in an A1200 is just totally WRONG... :)

Never actually seen an "060 AGA demo" but reckon it would be pretty weird purchasing an 060 just to watch one... :)

Gotta agree though that an 030 is a bit more compatible than the 060 for WHDLoad games but not by much... :)
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2011, 01:22:48 AM »
I have no doubt an '060 can outperform an '030, but 500%? Pure hyperbole.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Franko

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2011, 01:28:35 AM »
Drat... just missed out on this Blizzard060 from the states was at $340 (£212) for most of the day, and I forgot about it until a few minutes ago and ended up too slow in bidding... :(

went for $407.47 (£254.65) almost a hundred quid cheaper that you can get one here in the UK, wonder why they go so cheaply in the USA... :(

Blizzard060 64MB RAM (USA) sold for $407.47 (£254.65)


@Iggy

Yeah 500% increase is wee bit of an exaggeration... :)
 

Offline ChaosLord

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2011, 01:33:36 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;615155
I have no doubt an '060 can outperform an '030, but 500%? Pure hyperbole.
What percent would you say then?  479%?  466%?  ???
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2011, 01:36:31 AM »
Quote from: Franko;615157
Drat... just missed out on this Blizzard060 from the states was at $340 (£212) for most of the day, and I forgot about it until a few minutes ago and ended up too slow in bidding... :(

went for $407.47 (£254.65) almost a hundred quid cheaper that you can get one here in the UK, wonder why they go so cheaply in the USA... :(

Blizzard060 64MB RAM (USA) sold for $407.47 (£254.65)


@Iggy

Yeah 500% increase is wee bit of an exaggeration... :)


Nah, not if you're Irish or Scottish, but Americans don't know how to keep a straight face when they're burying you with BS.

And you're right, I stopped looking at that part over four hours ago when it topped $300. Hmm, I really thought that would go for more
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2011, 02:13:31 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;615142
>There are no doubts. A 500% speedup is impressive.

5 times? No way. I doubt it. Prove that one with a benchmark. I'll even take a relatively invalid one like a mips figure.

And the chipset? All access to sound, graphics, hard drives? Still just as slow with either processor.

Not that any of this really matters because even a 66Mhz '060 in a 4000 is still a really slow processor.

66Mhz? The PCI bus in my G4 Mac runs at that.


A 66mhz '060 is roughly 85-90mips. A 50mhz '030 is about 12. Are these the sorts of figures you was after ? An '060 really is something like the 500% faster figure that was quoted, even more in some cases. Sure AGA can become a bottleneck with heavily graphics intensive stuff, but that's a pretty small portion of the overall picture. How is this hard to believe? There's something like a decade between the cpus. Yes, by modern standards its a slow cpu, but it's the best experience avialable to a classic amiga, so good luck to anyone who trying to get ahold of one.
Even your 4140mips g4 is about 30x slower than current high end cpus (core i7-980x is rated as over 150,000 mips), but as you seem to understand when it's your hobby, raw speed isnt everything. It's about getting the best possible experience for your hobby.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 02:23:53 AM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline orb85750

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2011, 02:43:57 AM »
To deviate ever-so-slightly from the subject at hand, does anyone know how an A4000 with 25MHz 040 compares with 50MHz 060 of the later A4000?
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2011, 02:54:32 AM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;615165
A 66mhz '060 is roughly 85-90mips. A 50mhz '030 is about 12. Are these the sorts of figures you was after ? An '060 really is something like the 500% faster figure that was quoted, even more in some cases. Sure AGA can become a bottleneck with heavily graphics intensive stuff, but that's a pretty small portion of the overall picture. How is this hard to believe? There's something like a decade between the cpus. Yes, by modern standards its a slow cpu, but it's the best experience avialable to a classic amiga, so good luck to anyone who trying to get ahold of one.
Even your 4140mips g4 is about 30x slower than current high end cpus (core i7-980x is rated as over 150,000 mips), but as you seem to understand when it's your hobby, raw speed isnt everything. It's about getting the best possible experience for your hobby.


That's what I was kind of information I was hoping someone would quote me. This is why the difference between real performance gains and figures based solely on CPU performance data are so varied.

OK, now when say you run a video game, what's the increase in FPS when moving from an '030 to an '60? It's certainly not on the order of 5 times, is it?

And my G4 based Powermac, its not really 42 times more powerful than your '60 is it? Not really anymore than an i7 is 30 times more powerful than my G4.

We're completely outside any reasonable comparisons at this point.

The best way to look at this is the same as its always been, via application benchmarks.

So we all are clear on this, a 5  times higher CPU mips rating does not make a system five time "faster". Its a measurement of the CPU alone. And the Amiga relies on a lot of custom chips that gain little from a faster CPU.

The irritating thing is, Chaos knows this. That's why so much of the Natami's design features updated components. Even if you could recreate the original Amiga chipset, would you want to?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline ChaosLord

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Re: Possibly looking for 1260 card
« Reply #29 from previous page: February 13, 2011, 03:04:44 AM »
Time to add 2 IEEE Floating Point Numbers:
68060 = 3 cycles
68030 = around 150 cycles

150/3 = 50x speed = 5000% (That is 5 thousand % not 5 hundred %)

68030 fail
68060 win!
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA