OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?

[WolfToTheMoon]

Out of curiosity if the x1000 used x86 instead of PPC then how much could we expect to pay for it? How much money would i expect to save? This is theoretical and not taking into consideration hyperion or amigainc licenses or whatever...

If we take XMOS out of the picture and compare performancePPC vs performancex86, I'd say you would pay 4-5 times less(if X1000 price is somewhere around 2000 euros, which is likely) for hardware + AOS4 license. With XMOS included, I'd say half as much, but that's probably guessing wildly.

[Iggy]

If we take XMOS out of the picture and compare performancePPC vs performancex86, I'd say you would pay 4-5 times less(if X1000 price is somewhere around 2000 euros, which is likely) for hardware + AOS4 license. With XMOS included, I'd say half as much, but that's probably guessing wildly.

I'd say the first estimate is accurate. A full sized ATX motherboard with two PCIe X16 slots (to match the X1000) would raise the price slightly so 500 EUR is reasonable.

But the second estimates a little high. XMOS processors are a low cost item. If you have to have it on board, then yes its going to cost more because you're going to have to produce a custom motherboard. But what's wrong with an X?MOS plug in expansion card (then you only need the card).

Still better yet, stick with the first solution because XMOS is only really suited to hacking.

[Heiroglyph]

If it was an x86, it would probably be $35-$150 for the motherboard itself.

You can get XCore development kits for $100.  Dev kits are normally much more costly than final product, but that's impossible to say for certain.  The chips are under $20 even in quantities of one.

Comparable CPU's are hard to find, but would probably be around $30.

My guess is $165 to $280 cost + the markup assuming you used mostly off the shelf parts.

[WolfToTheMoon]

I'd say the first estimate is accurate. A full sized ATX motherboard with two PCIe X16 slots (to match the X1000) would raise the price slightly so 500 EUR is reasonable.

But the second estimates a little high. XMOS processors are a low cost item. If you have to have it on board, then yes its going to cost more because you're going to have to produce a custom motherboard. But what's wrong with an X?MOS plug in expansion card (then you only need the card).

Still better yet, stick with the first solution because XMOS is only really suited to hacking.

Actually, I overestimated PA6T performance... An even lower price may be possible, but let's stick to 500 euros for the entire system without the monitor. That's, I think, very realistic.

[salax54]

They don't own the source code - the developers do - Hyperion is effectively a shell company, all developers are effectively contractors. The only have a licence to sell the binaries, which they would need to renegotiate with the devs to recompile for x86. They would have to pay off their devs in order to get the source, which I seriously doubt they have the cash to do.
 
Also, afaik they're only licensed to produce OS4 for PPC. They would need to re-negotiate with Amiga.Inc for that.
 
Effectively, they're stuck.

Hmm, i tend to think it's not so!
"Within the framework of the settlement agreement Hyperion is granted an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide right to AmigaOS 3.1 in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market AmigaOS 4.x (and subsequent versions of AmigaOS including without limitation AmigaOS 5) in any form, on any medium and for any current or future hardware platform under the exclusive trademark "AmigaOS" (Amiga operating system) and using other associated trademarks (such as the "BoingBall" logo)."
 
I see no reason for them to ask permission if they actually wanted to port to x86 or xwhatever! Let's just face it: they don't want to!

[Kesa]

Wow. Paying 500 Euros instead of 2000 Euros!

Why are we even debating this topic then? If the x1000 sold for 500 Euros i would go and buy one in the next 30 minutes! On the other hand the x1000 that sells for 2000 Euros....   :confused:

I don't understand this thread   :confused:

[Iggy]

Hmm, i tend to think it's not so!
"Within the framework of the settlement agreement Hyperion is granted an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide right to AmigaOS 3.1 in order to use, develop, modify, commercialize, distribute and market AmigaOS 4.x (and subsequent versions of AmigaOS including without limitation AmigaOS 5) in any form, on any medium and for any current or future hardware platform under the exclusive trademark "AmigaOS" (Amiga operating system) and using other associated trademarks (such as the "BoingBall" logo)."
 
I see no reason for them to ask permission if they actually wanted to port to x86 or xwhatever! Let's just face it: they don't want to!

But how do they do it without the rights to the source code for AOS4? Do they move to AOS5 (without AOS4 source code) like AInc. was discussing (via their India subsidiary)?

[fishy_fiz]

I've only read a few posts in this thread, so I appolgise if these points had been covered already, but I just thought I'd throw in my two cents.....

Well, firstly, as for "what happens next", that question can be applied equally to the current "custom" ppc solutions, the only real difference being the buy in cost is a heck of a lot more obtainable by people if x86 was targetted. Now I know the often used arguement to this is that if people have an x86 machine they'll just use windows/mac osx/linux becasue (insert reason here), but I dont buy that. Personally Im a big amiga fan (all flavors) and have been since it's inception... if I want to use an amiga system I'll get ahold of the appropriate hardware to do so as I always have and I cant see why this would be different for other "amiga" fans apart from maybe part time tinkerers, but then they're hardly going to buy an expensive "custom" solution either. Additionally, I, as a lot of other people have a dedicated Windows machine besides my "amiga" systems (or Mac, or linux box depending on the person) to cover the few things I need/want from modern computing that amiga doesnt yet cover so again I'm hardly going to install Windows on my "amiga" hardware. As for those that had no x86 machine previously, why, after all this time would they suddenly switch to what theyve been avoiding all along? Anyway, at the end of the day I guess it doesnt matter, OS4.x is a ppc based system, as much demand as there is for it on x86 (as evident by the countless os4.x on x86 threads) it doesnt appear that it will happen. AROS is here, it's free and is progressing nicely. Hopefully with time the demand for OS4.x on x86 will dwindle because of AROS. As it is AROS can already exchange blows with OS4.x in terms of advantages.

[coldfish]

This question needed to be asked and acted on 10-15 years ago, its taken that long for people to realize that CPU architecture is largely irrelevant, (some still haven't).

I think it's definately too late for the Amiga platform to have any significance in the modern computing world.  

Best to enjoy it as a hobby and bury dead horses.

[divined]

Coldheartedly, I have to admit that indeed it is too late for Amiga OS to have any significance on the future of the computer industry. The amount of money & effort required to make it a viable contender is too excruciating to reckon.

  Nonetheless, no reason to panic. Once, we accept Amiga OS for what it is, in the context of modern computing, development can continue on a more hobbyist level. That is why, hardware and software for any future Amiga will cost a lot of money. Nobody, is going to invest in the Amiga if they don`t have a profit.

  x86 way? I honestly don`t think that Amiga OS has any chance x86wise. It might be cheaper. But then, so is Linux which is still being used by a minority of users. Furthermore, there already exists a x86 port of AmigaOS, in the name of AROS.

  Personally, I`m on standby. I wanna see how the new sam460 and X1000 will fare. If they seem to be doing good and if the prices are right (sure!!!) I just might hop on the Amiga OS 4.1 bandwagon and be a happy ppc user.

[bloodline]

A lot of people seem to have the whole x86 thing the wrong way around! Having your favourite Hobby OS on the x86 doesn't magically make it any more or less desirable, what it does do, is lower the barrier to entry and keeps prices down for the hardcore fans. Win win... Really simple guys!

[psxphill]

A lot of people seem to have the whole x86 thing the wrong way around! Having your favourite Hobby OS on the x86 doesn't magically make it any more or less desirable, what it does do, is lower the barrier to entry and keeps prices down for the hardcore fans. Win win... Really simple guys!

If you want an Amiga like OS on x86 (AOS4 is not AmigaOS), then AROS sounds perfect for you.
 
I can't see an x86 port of AOS4 happening ever. It might be great for the users, but it pretty much destroys any chance of making any money.
 
They wouldn't even be able to raise venture capitalist funding, because all they'd be doing is producing a competitor to windows & linux that will never gain a significant portion of the market.

[vidarh]

A lot of people seem to have the whole x86 thing the wrong way around! Having your favourite Hobby OS on the x86 doesn't magically make it any more or less desirable

Except it *does* to quite a few Amiga users. Even the PPC is controversial still to some Amiga users.

I use, and have contributed code to, AROS, but I also detest the x86 architecture. I'm pragmatic and x86 hardware because I need a main machine that is fast, and x86_64 is far cleaner, but for hack value the PPC is far more appealing and the M68k even more.

The thing is, AmigaOS4 (or 5 or whatever) on x86 wouldn't interest me much. I have AROS for that need. On PPC it's a different deal, beause of the hack value. I'll pay a premium for that. A big one. From the looks of it, I'm not the only one.

Now, I'm sure there are people who'd buy AmigaOS4 for x86 in a heatbeat, but who can't justify a SAM or X1000, but likewise there will be people for whom AmigaOS4 on x86 would be completely uninteresting, but who'll happily pay for the PPC version even if it is more expensive

Hyperion has to weight the odds of the former group being larger than the second group by a sufficient factor to offset the porting cost, and there really is no good basis for making a judgement about that.

It is naive at best to assume that non-Amiga users would flock to AmigaOS if it was available at current price for x86, for example - it'd be compared to Linux, Windows and OS X, and for users without a strong sentimental bond to the Amiga, it's still lacking too many things to be a serious contender. So the queston is how many Amiga fans are out there without PPC or classic hardware that'd buy OS4 for x86 instead of just using UAE or AROS if they decide to go x86?

They'd make a big investment in porting (new drivers, endianness issues - and in my experience porting Amiga code to AROS, there are likely to be many) while splitting the software market for OS4 in two and risk alienating many of their customers, with little hope of any big payoff from new users.

They're far better off improving their current product for now, and quietly making it more solid and more portable and more up to scratch compared to other OS's, and build up a better set of OS4 software that is more easily ported (discourage ASM), and then *if* they decide to do a switch, do it down the line if they have something that might actually compete with other x86 OS's for non-Amiga users.

[tone007]

AOS4 (AmigaOS 4) is not AmigaOS

Only Amiga makes it possible!

[WolfToTheMoon]

and then *if* they decide to do a switch, do it down the line if they have something that might actually compete with other x86 OS's for non-Amiga users.

Down the line? IMHO, X1000 will probably be the last OS4 PPC AmigaOne... if it ever happens, that is. And Sam460 is unlikely to keep the fan base going, especially priced the way it is. The only way forward might be the Classics market(with PPC acc cards), which is both bigger and more stable. And surprise, surprise... OS 4.1 is coming for the Classics. Curious timing, would you say? Especially in the light of previous discussions that there will not be a OS 4.1 for 68k systems...

But it would be hard to blame Hyperion for this. The death warrant for the amigaOS and PPC configuration was signed a long way ago.

[persia]

There's nothing inherently wrong with PPC or superior with X86, it simply was a case of demand driving down the price.  Before the switch Apple was perhaps 4 % of the market, not enough to make a difference to IBM.  When Apple wanted a more powerful PPC for laptops IBM told them to just wait and we'll get around to it, eventually, some day, real soon now. So Apple gave in.  Even the desktop chips, the "military spec" G5s were falling desperately behind X86.  The choice was clear, expensive, slow, rare PPC or cheap, fast, common X86.  The choice was obvious.