I don't get it.

[EDanaII]

There's a lot of arguments against that, and I don't just mean peoples personal feelings.
AOS _still_ wouldn't be able to access anything more than the first physical core and SMT would be equally wasted. Compatibility would be thrown out for old PPC programs, emulation would be required which is not easy. Plus AOS itself would have to be ported including any and all endianess issues.

It also wouldn't bring any greater hardware compatibility because no-one has released any drivers of Amiga OS and the ones we do have would also need porting.

Sure it'd get us access to cheaper hardware but if you're looking for x86 AOS then you're looking for AROS.

Don't get me wrong, because I like what AROS has accomplished, but AROS suffers from the same issue all open source software does: it gets updated when it gets updated (no schedule and rocking). Which is why I'd like to see a professionally supported AmigaOS derivative. Personally, I don't care if it's AOS4 or MorphOS, but cheap affordable hardware is all that matters anymore, especially if you want to grow your base.

Regarding the endianess and emulation issues... that's like me worrying about whether or not my car is slant/straight or V. I don't care. I just want it to get me down the road.

[runequester]

Don't get me wrong, because I like what AROS has accomplished, but AROS suffers from the same issue all open source software does: it gets updated when it gets updated (no schedule and rocking). Which is why I'd like to see a professionally supported AmigaOS derivative. Personally, I don't care if it's AOS4 or MorphOS, but cheap affordable hardware is all that matters anymore, especially if you want to grow your base.
 
Regarding the endianess and emulation issues... that's like me worrying about whether or not my car is slant/straight or V. I don't care. I just want it to get me down the road.

well, open source doesnt mean you cant have dedicated resources behind it. If a company put some weight behind AROS development, it'd do as fine as anything else.
 
Team up with a few small suppliers of PC hardware to produce more ready to go systems like the imica and you have a nice little setup for hobby guys

[persia]

Timbermilf?!?!

Gotta love the comments....

[EDanaII]

well, open source doesnt mean you cant have dedicated resources behind it. If a company put some weight behind AROS development, it'd do as fine as anything else.
 
Team up with a few small suppliers of PC hardware to produce more ready to go systems like the imica and you have a nice little setup for hobby guys

Yep. Which is why I've been watching the development of the iMica and AresOne with interest. An interesting new business model may be emerging here...

[the_leander]

Now, we've got a 1.8GHz core in this X1000 which is roughly equivalent to the G5 but using less power...

And costing 450euro and with no path for upgrade thereafter. This chip is quite simply the literal definition of a dead end. The company that designed them has been swallowed up and the only reason the PA6T is still being produced is because the US army had a contract for them. Simply put, these things are army surplus, which should suit doomy right down to the ground - they really are "mil spec".

The only other PPC on the horizon that might even be remotely competitive that I've heard of is a chip still on the drawing boards at Freescale which may or may not ever come to anything and even if it does will still be years away.

[AJCopland]

And costing 450euro and with no path for upgrade thereafter. This chip is quite simply the literal definition of a dead end. The company that designed them has been swallowed up and the only reason the PA6T is still being produced is because the US army had a contract for them. Simply put, these things are army surplus, which should suit doomy right down to the ground - they really are "mil spec".

The only other PPC on the horizon that might even be remotely competitive that I've heard of is a chip still on the drawing boards at Freescale which may or may not ever come to anything and even if it does will still be years away.

Ah yes I forgot, around here its not that you want the moon-on-a-stick, its that it's not the moon-on-a-stick you were hoping for.

Andy

[the_leander]

Ah yes I forgot, around here its not that you want the moon-on-a-stick, its that it's not the moon-on-a-stick you were hoping for.

I'm pretty certain most people "around here" are not so bereft of reason that they see PPC as anything other than an architectural dead end as far as the desktop goes. This to us is a hobby and nothing more. Most of us simply want to enjoy our hobby, we neither wanted nor needed the "moon-on-a-stick" and haven't done since the exodus. Even within those on this site who enjoy OS4 have all pretty much in unison said this thing is way too expensive for what it can offer.

Within that context a £1500 piece of kit simply doesn't make much sense. Using a £450 dead end cpu that can be trounced by a £50 AMD or Intel part just makes it a sick joke.

PPC is incredibly expensive, even when compared to other embedded CPUs. Even Coldfire can be bought on dev boards that are significantly cheaper than an equivalently spec'd PPC. MIPS and ARM leave them both standing in terms of price/performance.

Even to the most hard-line BAF the X1000 is a harsh pill to swallow.

[gertsy]

I'm pretty certain most people "around here" are not so bereft of reason that they see PPC as anything other than an architectural dead end as far as the desktop goes. This to us is a hobby and nothing more. Most of us simply want to enjoy our hobby, we neither wanted nor needed the "moon-on-a-stick" and haven't done since the exodus. Even within those on this site who enjoy OS4 have all pretty much in unison said this thing is way too expensive for what it can offer.

Within that context a £1500 piece of kit simply doesn't make much sense. Using a £450 dead end cpu that can be trounced by a £50 AMD or Intel part just makes it a sick joke.

PPC is incredibly expensive, even when compared to other embedded CPUs. Even Coldfire can be bought on dev boards that are significantly cheaper than an equivalently spec'd PPC. MIPS and ARM leave them both standing in terms of price/performance.

Even to the most hard-line BAF the X1000 is a harsh pill to swallow.

Then "I dont get it!" How do you make a business case stack up for a product that no one will buy?  There must have been some market research done that has identified a product, a price point and a market, surely,,or Not?  Or no business case: Just a wing and a prayer?

Gertsy

[the_leander]

Then "I dont get it!" How do you make a business case stack up for a product that no one will buy?  There must have been some market research done that has identified a product, a price point and a market, surely,,or Not?  Or no business case: Just a wing and a prayer?

You know that was one of the things that bothered me about this from the start. Where was the market research done? Even within the context of a hobbyist market such as the Amiga some measure of research should be done.

I mean consider this fella here. He went around various forums enquiring as to the saleability of a PPC console/dev box type unit. Even between the combined Linux PPC, MorphOS, Haiku and OS4 crowds he simply could not justify the development of a product based on PPC. There was no market for such a device even between all of those hobbyist sets.

If Trevor Dickinson had done even the most cursory of investigations into the viability of just the OS4 market, X1000 would never have even had its blueprints completed, much less prototypes commissioned.

[gertsy]

Maybe he knows something we don't ?

[AJCopland]

I'm pretty certain most people "around here" are not so bereft of reason that they see PPC as anything other than an architectural dead end as far as the desktop goes. This to us is a hobby and nothing more. Most of us simply want to enjoy our hobby, we neither wanted nor needed the "moon-on-a-stick" and haven't done since the exodus. Even within those on this site who enjoy OS4 have all pretty much in unison said this thing is way too expensive for what it can offer.

Within that context a £1500 piece of kit simply doesn't make much sense. Using a £450 dead end cpu that can be trounced by a £50 AMD or Intel part just makes it a sick joke.

PPC is incredibly expensive, even when compared to other embedded CPUs. Even Coldfire can be bought on dev boards that are significantly cheaper than an equivalently spec'd PPC. MIPS and ARM leave them both standing in terms of price/performance.

Even to the most hard-line BAF the X1000 is a harsh pill to swallow.

But that's just it, it's not for you, they've gone and made it seemingly despite the lack of a market and that's the cost. Some people will buy it though and it'll probably sell some for Linux and MorphOS too since there are die-hard PPCLinux fans too. Just because it's not for you and you wanted X, Y, or Z doesn't mean that it isn't a reasonable thing for THEM to have made.

Yes you wanted power at less cost, but AOS4.x doesn't run on anything other than PPC so it was always going to be PPC despite the cost and lack of desktop CPUs because that's the little box we're locked in architecturally.

If you want x86 or ARM then you've got to go for AROS for the time being.

So what "I don't get" is what all the complaining is about, it seems like everyone has a negative opinion to share about the X1000 but isn't willing to accept that their position isn't going to match the existing software (AOS4.x) or the companies (Hyperion etc) goals.

So why complain about it saying it's too expensive when we know that it's always going to be too expensive when using PPC and that it is _always_ going to be PPC.

You either have to accept that and take PPC hardware for AOS4.x or you switch to your alternatives in the form of MorphOS on existing eMac hardware or AROS on x86/ARM(?) but what's the use in complaining about the X1000 when at least someone has spent time, money and their own hard work bringing it to fruition? It's like slapping them in the face and say "you're shit, you should have done XYZ" despite knowing that XYZ is currently out of their control.

Andy

[AJCopland]

Even to the most hard-line BAF the X1000 is a harsh pill to swallow.

Also... what's a BAF?

[gertsy]

Also... what's a BAF?

Like a BARF but with missing Rs.  Or could be Big/Bold/Brash Amiga Fan/Fanatic/Fancier..  I guess.

[the_leander]

But that's just it, it's not for you, they've gone and made it seemingly despite the lack of a market and that's the cost. Some people will buy it though and it'll probably sell some for Linux and MorphOS too since there are die-hard PPCLinux fans too. Just because it's not for you and you wanted X, Y, or Z doesn't mean that it isn't a reasonable thing for THEM to have made.

Oh where to start on this....

Yes you wanted power at less cost

Who wanted what now? I think you have me confused with someone who gives a crap about either of the AmigaNG camps.

Want to woo me or many of the others like me on this site? See the Minimig for how to do it right.

, but AOS4.x doesn't run on anything other than PPC so it was always going to be PPC despite the cost and lack of desktop CPUs because that's the little box we're locked in architecturally.

No, what you are is EOL architecturally. This thing isn't even in production any more.

So what "I don't get" is what all the complaining is about, it seems like everyone has a negative opinion to share about the X1000 but isn't willing to accept that their position isn't going to match the existing software (AOS4.x) or the companies (Hyperion etc) goals.

What you don't get is that even amongst the OS4 crowd this thing is grossly overpriced. The PPC linux market is gone, it's history. It is a dead parrot. See my followup post to gertsy regarding the last time someone actually bothered to do any market research into PPC.

Sure, by all means bring new stuff to a market, but even within the hobbyist set some research into the target audience, and even looking into just who it was this was targeted at.

but what's the use in complaining about the X1000 when at least someone has spent time, money and their own hard work bringing it to fruition?

Some of us don't like watching people getting robbed silly. If this chap had done some basic investigations into the marketplace X1000 as it is today wouldn't exist, chances are something like the Sam460 would have been created for a much more palatable price. This isn't about demonising the fella and it never was. This was simply wondering where he got his numbers from.

It's like slapping them in the face and say "you're shit, you should have done XYZ"

No one has said or implied that. Also quit making it personal. It isn't.

BAF = Blind Amiga Fanatics. Basically the most zealous of the "church of the one true amiga". These folks were the ones who left AO during the exodus when it became clear that Wayne wasn't going to accede to their demands to remove all mention of MorphOS AROS and anything else they didn't like the look of. They created AW.net and then later caused a second exodus in the wake of their scamming the community regarding the quality of the A1 to amigans.net.

[the_leander]

Maybe he knows something we don't ?

Almost certainly. But you have to admit, from the outside this looks like a complete hash from start to finish.

[gertsy]

....
BAF = Blind Amiga Fanatics
......

But the Amiga OS never had "Accessibility Options."  Though it was always a high contrast OS. Originally.