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Author Topic: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations  (Read 16219 times)

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Offline 0amigan0Topic starter

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2009, 12:44:32 PM »
Quote from: bernd_afa;534703
>Or find someone else to compile it. Do u know other 68k devs, besides Artur, who can do >it?

as i told zero_hero can do it,
also amistuff can do it, diegocr and many i forget.


Ask one of them (or all of them) to co-operate in the porting; more hands are better than one.

Quote

  But when MOS OWB is faster as OS4 OWB
...


Fab already said MOS OWB is faster. I say: let's trust his words.


Quote


the browser thats done on MOS or OS4 are done from the OS Developers.On a commercial  OS its important to have a better than nothing solution as fast as possible to sell more systems.

but developers that develop for fun, want do something better usefull or when they get money(see AROS Port)

And as can see, for 68k there are no bounties or something else as on AROS or OS4 or MOS.


Fab asked no money in order to do it.
Do u want to be paid ? Is this the "problem" ?
 

Offline unusedunused

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2009, 02:20:04 PM »
>more hands are better than >one.

yes thats right and so i think there should more working together to bring a perfect browser.

if the MOS OWB is really faster, then maybe somebody add the enhancements to AROS or add it in the Main OWB Core.

and when i then see it work same fast as other browsers, then i am more motivate to compile it for 68k.

I need not hurry up, and can wait and look whats happen in 1 year if it is then more easy possible to port OWB.

>Fab already said MOS OWB is faster. I say: let's trust his words.

Fab is a Morph OS Developer.
When you ask the Microsoft Browser Developers, i think he answer too that Internet explorer is fastest ;-)

And same is with the Apple Safari Developers i think. ;-)

But i can test IE and Safari and notice that Safari is faster.

>Fab asked no money in order to do it.
Yes, but we not know if he get money from MOS sells.

that he accept no bounty can also better Marketing.

Or what do you think when Apple/MS make a browser that miss since some years the importants things as a download progress bar and more.
and there is on Apple/MS Homepage a button for bounty ?

>Do u want to be paid ? Is this the "problem" ?

No, i dont want paid, i want fun on coding and something i can use myself.netsurf i can use on some pages currently, but AROS OWB is too slow to use for me.I test on vmware and Icaros.

I like more the AROS Version because it use no Cairo and is a MUI class.So browser can use with every application.and because its a class there is possible to build a amiblitz GUI for example.

because i use winuae i can use windows browsers until the browser situation in amiga land look better.maybe MOS OWB get as MUI class some day.then its more easy portable

maybe somebody add the libcss/libhtml of netsurf to aweb or so.

so before spend lots work, better wait.netsurf is here and because its written not in C++ it can be more easy get faster, it can be much faster compile etc.

I have program a peephole Optimizer for amiblitz and i know also what much additional code the CPU on C++ must execute, to run this nice OO code.

Many developers that use C++ dont know anything abput how a CPU work, they never start a profiler or have any glue how fast a 1 GHZ CPU can be.

for example.with a 50 MHZ 68060 you can compile perfect paint complete (source have 60000 lines in amiblitz in 12 sec.then you can start it and after load 4 sec later it show the main window.

so i really dont understand wy a page that contain some text and parse some 200 lines of html code on a classic need over 18 sec show.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 02:29:18 PM by bernd_afa »
 

Offline Fab

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2009, 02:29:25 PM »
Quote from: bernd_afa;534696
>Plus, I don't understand why u shouldn't believe Fab when he says that his MOS version >is faster than AROS one ?

I see this video from Fab when load http://www.cnn.com and with AROS OWB i get same times(7-8 sec) to show page first.safari/chrome is lots faster around 2-3 sec.netsurf on my winuae need 4-5 sec.not optimal, but better as OWB on AROS, netsurf Team is working to add a cache.I think when its done, netsurf is speed up.

http://fabportnawak.free.fr/vids/cnn.mpg

sure he tell situation is not optimal, but normaly i think when doing a vĂ­deo before first try once and then do it again to see if time is same and reproducable.and when his OWB really is so fast as firefox or other windows webkit browsers, then its clear notice if a browser need 2-3 sec to show a page or 7 sec.

Also you can see on Video, he do no reload.he type the name in, its possible that there is something on cache.



When my router is responsive, cnn displays in 3-4s. But should we remind you once again that network speed and latency is a *very* important factor in this kind of benchmark?

And no, there was no cache involved in my test.


Quote

but still, it run slower because of slow internet,OWB load too much data from internet before he begin to show the page.also when press the page back button the load of the last page is same slow as a full load.this i see on 68k OWB and AROS OWB.

normaly when press page back the page is show in around 0,5 sec complete.On netsurf some pages are show fast some not, but as netsurf Team told teh cache is currently broken and is rewritten to do disk caching too.


There's a page cache in WebKit, that just happens to be disabled by default in OWB (understandable considering their embedded orientation). When page cache is enabled, it obviously displays in a fraction of second, if the page is still in cache.

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I dont know, i have not compile it.there is a AROS version from 2006 nobody use.and now when somebody really need cairo, he need the newest version, maybe here is change something.Or where is the source for MOS Cairo

Cairo is a backend and i think it need some platform dependent graphic stuff.

But i remember when firefox change to Cairo render it get too slower.I think best is use SDL and fix teh scroll problem by using HWsurface and sdl blit command.


Cairo/Pixman straight-compiles (unless you add hw acceleration of course, then it's a lot more work). And there's a reason to use Cairo over SDL too. In OWB, they also moved from the SDLgfx graphics backend to Cairo one, because WebKit just needs a capable gfx library and SDLgfx isn't up to the task. So in current OWB SDL implementation, rendering is done with Cairo and the result is blitted with SDL.

Quote

i think on 68k there are more devs that can do it.But there seem no perfect browser for amiga currently here.

the browser thats done on MOS or OS4 are done from the OS Developers.On a commercial OS its important to have a better than nothing solution as fast as possible to sell more systems.

but developers that develop for fun, want do something better usefull or when they get money(see AROS Port)

And as can see, for 68k there are no bounties or something else as on AROS or OS4 or MOS.


I'm not sure what you imply there, but should I remind you I didn't charge nor ask anything for OWB? It wasn't a bounty either.

Also, to me, it seems OWB+SDL and NetSurf+SDL ports are closer to the "better than nothing" quick hacks than the other NetSurf or OWB ports on OS4/MorphOS. At least, there was some real work involved in the latters to build a GUI around the engine, unlike SDL ports.

@0amigan0
Quote

Fab already said MOS OWB is faster. I say: let's trust his words.


Actually, I didn't say MorphOS OWB was faster than OS4 OWB. They're roughly the same I'd say, both faster at scrolling than AROS or Linux ports (which is normal, since they lack a proper scroll method). The main difference would be MorphOS port uses a thread for network, which avoids blocking UI.
 

Offline 0amigan0Topic starter

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2009, 02:35:35 PM »
Quote from: bernd_afa;534715
...

because i use winuae i can use windows browsers until the browser situation in amiga land look better.maybe MOS OWB get as MUI class some day.then its more easy portable

MOS OWB is *already* a MUI application (AFAIK).
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 02:40:46 PM by 0amigan0 »
 

Offline Fab

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2009, 02:45:18 PM »
Quote from: bernd_afa;534715
>more hands are better than >one.
>Fab asked no money in order to do it.
Yes, but we not know if he get money from MOS sells.

that he accept no bounty can also better Marketing.

Or what do you think when Apple/MS make a browser that miss since some years the importants things as a download progress bar and more.
and there is on Apple/MS Homepage a button for bounty ?


I don't request anything from MorphOS sales, and if I did, it would certainly not be about OWB. I'm generally not at ease with requesting money for an opensource software where i only wrote 0.1% of the whole code.

Maybe you're thinking about that other open(soon-to-be-closed)-source bounty-based browser ported by some OS core developers. :)

Also, I'm not sure what you are referring to about missing download progress, but i hope you don't refer to my port.

Quote

I like more the AROS Version because it use no Cairo and is a MUI class.So browser can use with every application.and because its a class there is possible to build a amiblitz GUI for example.

because i use winuae i can use windows browsers until the browser situation in amiga land look better.maybe MOS OWB get as MUI class some day.then its more easy portable

Fine with that. It would probably be easier to port since you wouldn't have to adapt some MUI4 calls. You'd lose all the other features that are not available in AROS version, though.
About the class, it's certainly something nice to have, but I think the current AROS class crashes if there's more than one opener, which is a bit limiting. :)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 03:35:52 PM by Fab »
 

Offline unusedunused

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2009, 03:40:24 PM »
>Also, I'm not sure what you are referring to about missing download progress, but i hope >you don't refer to my port.

I mean not your Port, i know MOS and AROS OWB have a download progress bar.

>MOS OWB is *already* a MUI application (AFAIK).

I mean that OWB is a class, simular to the MUI HTML class, but of course can show all.
Then its possible to add code easy that simple Mail and YAM can show Mails in HTML too.

but because simple Mail and Yam is a multiplatform AOS Program that run on 68k MOS OS4 AROS, it does not help when in amigaland no working together is possible and every side do their own browser.
 

Offline unusedunused

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2009, 03:51:18 PM »
>About the class, it's certainly something nice to have, but I think the current AROS class >crashes if there's more than one opener, which is a bit limiting.  

the bounty rule is say it should work.if you know a problem in design, you should report it.when it not work, its also not possible when run 2 or more OWB at same time.
 

Offline 0amigan0Topic starter

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2009, 04:26:59 PM »
Quote from: bernd_afa;534729
...
but because simple Mail and Yam is a multiplatform AOS Program that run on 68k MOS OS4 AROS, it does not help when in amigaland no working together is possible and every side do their own browser.


OK, we all know this. Now, can u try, at least try to straight-compile the libraries required by Mos Owb ? Yes or No ?

If No, well... we can close here this thread.
 

Offline unusedunused

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2009, 08:44:38 AM »
Quote from: Fab;534718


Actually, I didn't say MorphOS OWB was faster than OS4 OWB. They're roughly the same .


If you see no diffrence, then MOS OWB have same Problem.Here can too read from 2 OS4 dev that OWB load much of the page.try also the link on MOS OWB

other browsers need not so much load before a page is usable(mean scrollable/movable)

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30292&forum=32#526721

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30292&forum=32#526765

this page reload in 1-2 sec on windows browsers.need test how long it take on AROS.

>When page cache is enabled, it obviously displays in a fraction of second, if the page is >still in cache.

And how can enable this, so i can check in AROS/68k sources ?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 08:47:26 AM by bernd_afa »
 

Offline Piru

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2009, 08:59:26 AM »
@bernd_afa

You sound like a broken record.
 

Offline utri007

Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2009, 10:49:33 AM »
You are allways so polite and friendly.

[edit by admin: personal attack.]
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 12:51:12 PM by Wayne »
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Offline Piru

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2009, 11:11:59 AM »
@utri007

if you have a problem with something I said, please specify what it was.

otherwise stfu. and keep our relatives out of it.
 

Offline Argo

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2009, 12:32:32 PM »
Okay, let's leave people's mothers out of this. Not personal attacks either.
Keep it civil and constructive criticizim.
 

Offline unusedunused

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2009, 12:49:08 PM »
>You sound like a broken record.

i must post only facts because told MOS OWB is fast as other browsers.

It does not help to make things better or attract more Users to Amiga OS NG Systems when all is tell great, and features that are miss, is tell they are not need.there arte lots other sytems out that offer this features.and thats maybe the main Reason wy AOS have since all this years not at least 5000 Users from the several Million Users Amiga have in the past.

such a strategie can only work in a Monopol World, but Amiga have no Monopol.

maybe when all work together OWB can get equal in compare to other browser, and all users save time when then surf
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 12:55:38 PM by bernd_afa »
 

Offline Fab

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2009, 02:16:25 PM »
Quote from: bernd_afa;534886
If you see no diffrence, then MOS OWB have same Problem.Here can too read from 2 OS4 dev that OWB load much of the page.try also the link on MOS OWB

other browsers need not so much load before a page is usable(mean scrollable/movable)

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30292&forum=32#526721

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30292&forum=32#526765

this page reload in 1-2 sec on windows browsers.need test how long it take on AROS.

There's a difference between speed and responsivity, but that must be too subtle for you, and these 2 OS4 dev have no idea about the real issue. It's not about loading too much data, really. You might consider WebKit is the very same engine as chrome and safari use, and OWB didn't change its behaviour there. The problem is in the network handling, like i said several times before.

In MorphOS port, I moved network code to a dedicated thread, which avoids the responsivity issues listed in that thread. So i can act on the document as soon as the document(+css?) is received, just like it should be. I can even profile it precisely with WebInspector, actually.

About your (meaningless) benchmark, that page reloads in 2 seconds on OWB MorphOS, so what?

Quote
>When page cache is enabled, it obviously displays in a fraction of second, if the page is >still in cache.

And how can enable this, so i can check in AROS/68k sources ?

In webcore settings, the name is very explicit (pagecache and cachemodel).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 02:21:33 PM by Fab »
 

Offline unusedunused

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Re: @Bernd_afa: OWB (68k) optimizations
« Reply #44 from previous page: December 23, 2009, 06:55:28 PM »
>There's a difference between speed and responsivity, but that must be too subtle for you,

I know that, but when you read th second post, he write that OWB on OS4 is too responsive.

""""
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30292&forum=32#526731

I have to say that isn't true. I can click on links, scroll, etc while it is still loading some images (and maybe other stuff). But it does seem to need to load a lot of the page first, before rendering
"""

As soon OWB on 68k or AROS show the page the first time it is responsive, at least with a delay of 200 ms.but until OWB show a page it need much more time than other browsers.

when i try 5 times to reload cnn on safari and get times to first show of 2-3 sec and then try with OWB and  AROS and then i need 7-8sec then its a huge noticable diffrence.