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Author Topic: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained  (Read 11330 times)

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Offline Rob

Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #29 from previous page: December 14, 2005, 11:24:03 PM »
@JoannaK

Why does OS4 even matter to you.  If it's so bad why even bother to comment?
 

Offline Lando

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Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2005, 12:06:09 AM »
Quote
@JoannaK

Why does OS4 even matter to you. If it's so bad why even bother to comment?


Because this is a discussion forum, where people discuss things?

You don't have to like something to comment on it.

Why not discuss the article - offer your own views on her observations, and explain why you disagree?

Or you could just continue telling anyone you don't agree with to shut up.
 

Offline Rob

Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2005, 12:40:25 AM »
@Lando


To quote the preacher in From Dusk Till Dawn

I didn't make a statement. I asked a question.
 

Offline Plaz

Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2005, 03:10:02 AM »
Quote
Are you saying OS4 doesn't use the MMU? Why not?


No, I didn't. I just asked an obscure (and facecious) newbie question about using slab without MMU since the Hyperion article didn't mention the MMU as part of their article. I know MMU has been around for ages, but I don't pretend to know much about it's "theory of operation". I do need to be careful about my dry humor.

Plaz
 

Offline Tigger

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Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2005, 05:23:49 AM »
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Maybe you should check out what is written and "being presented" before you make an ass of yourself.


Maybe you should.  First of all why is this a ground breaking system like hyperion claims if its from 1968.   Secondly, don't you think that the fact the example they give breaks worse on a slab system then on the current amiga system makes it a bad example to use on there website.  Don't believe me, work it out yourself.  The example that Hyperion uses for why they are using a slab system, works worse on a slab system then on the the current implementation.  
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Offline Tigger

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Re: @ dylansmrjo - the eternal idiot
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2005, 05:33:19 AM »
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Well, I know of at least 3 dealers in Scandinavia and Northern Europe who are capable of shipping mikroA1.

Which part of give me a name was confusing to you??

Quote

The management system is a tad old, but it's fine in many OS'es, and there is no reason it shouldn't work fine in AOS. It is way better than the old system, which resembles the memory management in Win9X way too much.

The current system isnt like win9x, and there are several reasons the slab system will preform slower on the new system.  Is slower better to you??

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The old system is bad because it wastes too much memory and is inflexible. As I wrote in the former paragraph it looks a lot like other outdated and long time since replaced systems.

Again, you understand the example they give actually works better with the old system, rather then with the new system right???   I mean super OS genius such as yourself caught on to that right away, right??   But you still think the 3 pages on the website is ok, I mean posting an example that shows you dont know how slab works is good for a website preaching you use slab??
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Offline AmigaHeretic

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Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2005, 08:08:34 AM »
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First of all why is this a ground breaking system like hyperion claims if its from 1968


Again, did you READ anything?? Could you point me to the phrase where it says "Ground Breaking" because I think you're full of {bleep}.  

I can't see anywhere in the article that they say they invented this technology or that it's ground breaking.  Just more crap from the usual suspects.

What a joke.

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Offline evilrich

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Re: @ dylansmrjo - the eternal idiot
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2005, 08:28:30 AM »
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Again, you understand the example they give actually works better with the old system, rather then with the new system right???

One has to admire such bloody-mindedness as yours. Okay, so the extreme example chosen to illustrate fragmentation doesn't show the advantages of slab allocators and objects caches, but that's no reason to dismiss the concepts.

But let's go with bloody-mindedness for now.

The pattern of memory allocation and de-allocations as chosen in that example wouldn't happen in the real world. But let's assume they did. You say the original AmigaOS allocation scheme would work better. How so? Let's assume that the allocations are done with AllocMem and that AllocMem and friends offer the same alignment on OS4.0 that they did on earlier versions of AmigaOS. Then the old system and the slab allocator would perform roughly equally. And neither system would fail allocating the 2-byte blocks, since all allocations are done in multiples of 4 bytes anyway. I suppose you mean the new system performs worse since the slab system has a  greater storage overhead involved somewhere. However, since the implementation details haven't been made available, we don't know what this overhead might be. Remember, an old-style free list containing every other 4-byte block is already considerable overhead.

Now let's consider allocations done with AllocVec. With the object-caching system proposed, it's no longer necessary to store the length of an allocation before each memory block. For small allocations such as these, the length of the block can be a property of an object cache. Surely now, even considering such a pathological case as the example you're making such as fuss about, the new system potentially performs much better since it has much less overhead per allocation.

In the real world, the memory system in OS4.0 provides 8-byte alignment for the PPC's FPU (Or is it 16 bytes, as required by AltiVec? I'm not clear on this). Assuming 8-byte alignment, then old and new are roughly equally again in terms of memory usage. But that's a function of the new alignment of allocations - not the fact that OS4.0 uses a slab allocator and object-caching.

In the real world, the simple fact is that the slab system is in general much faster than the old system because there's no need to walk the (potentially arbitrarily long) free memory list every time you want to perform an allocation.

Cheers,
Rich
 

Offline Wilse

Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2005, 10:14:07 AM »
:pint:

Cheers folks.
It's been a while since I enjoyed reading an *amiga* related debate on this site.

Offline Tigger

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Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2005, 03:23:31 PM »
Quote

I can't see anywhere in the article that they say they invented this technology or that it's ground breaking. Just more crap from the usual suspects.


From the article:

"our desire to bring this new version of the Operating System to the cutting edge - AmigaOS4.0 has introduced a better way of doing things"

And this

"This is just one more example of the technical innovations we are bringing to AmigaOS4.0 to make the greatest Operating System of the past into the greatest Operating System of the future."

Again really think these 1968 concepts are cutting edge and technical innovations???  And apparently you are the one who didnt read the article.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: @ dylansmrjo - the eternal idiot
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2005, 03:51:11 PM »
Quote

One has to admire such bloody-mindedness as yours. Okay, so the extreme example chosen to illustrate fragmentation doesn't show the advantages of slab allocators and objects caches, but that's no reason to dismiss the concepts.


You are missing my point.   First of all this an old idea, its not innovative, etc as Hyperion says on there website.   Secondly, there example shows they basically do not understand slab, I do, I've used it on more then one occasion, thats not the issue, look at my first post on moobunny.  I didnt know whether to laugh or cry, because here is the OS company, selling there OS by showing they dont know why you would use slab over the current implementation.  And because slab has more overhead then the current implementation, its really worse in the case they gave.  If you were an OEM looking for an OS, (say like I have done on several occasions) would this make you not consider OS4??  Absolutely, if the company selling an OS, doesnt understand the concepts they are selling, I am surely not going to trust there OS on my product.   Slab is used by many OS's, but for the most part they were all designed to use it from the ground up, I have a feeling that between the JIT and this memory change, alot of old stuff is going down, I'm talking 1.4 level of breakage, which ended up with us going 2.0 instead, which was less groundbreaking as an OS, but more compatible with the current software.  I really dont imagine Hyperion is going to put anything like clickity-split into the OS, do you??
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Offline Argo

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Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2005, 03:55:47 PM »
Quote
Again really think these 1968 concepts are cutting edge and technical innovations??? And apparently you are the one who didnt read the article.  -Tig


Okay, so you are say that Amiga OS 4.0 is the only  current OS that is using this nearly 40 year old idea?
Well, for Amiga OS it is inovative. Of course by your argument Linux, BSD and UNIX are in the same boat of old tech. Oh, Guess that would incluse MacOS too. As it is based on BSD now which was based on UNIX. Which we all know is ancient.
So, that would make Window one of the only true modern cutting edge inovative OSs! :-D
Was the Theory of Relativity inovative? It was based on over 50 years of other peoples idea, theories, and experiments.

Now you are sounding like a broken record, skipping and repeating. I think you've made your statement and opinion clear. Time to move on to something else. So some people don't argee. Repeating yourself isn't going to work.
 

Offline AmigaHeretic

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Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2005, 04:12:45 PM »
So you're telling me you're wrong and they didn't say it was "ground breaking"?  "Ground breaking" meaning something that's never been done before??  

Quote
"our desire to bring this new version of the Operating System to the cutting edge - AmigaOS4.0 has introduced a better way of doing things"


"A better way of doing things" - Isn't it better to have memory protection than not?  "Their desire to bring AmigaOS to the the cutting edge" - Adding memory protection is helping to get that desire fullfilled.  One step at a time...


Quote
"This is just one more example of the technical innovations we are bringing to AmigaOS4.0 to make the greatest Operating System of the past into the greatest Operating System of the future."


So you're saying SLAB wasn't a technical innovation?  Strange I wonder why it got so widely adopted.  Hmmm... I suppose the internet wasn't a technical innovation since it was around in the 60's and if someone made a device that allowed you to get on the internet on your "cell" phone, now that wouldn't be an innovation right, because the internet has been around since the 60's.   :roll:


Still missing their 'ground breaking' claims or that they have invented something.

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Offline Mr_Capehill

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Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2005, 04:12:55 PM »
Dear Tigger,

The Knuth68 reference is just one of many, why do you stick to it all the time?

Fine, I know that the new system isn't not innovative (sounds more like market speech to me) but it's surely an improvement over the freelist approach - how long they have been in use, since 1950 or?-)

I don't think Hyperion is just blindly adopting something new and cool without serious testing.
 

Offline Tigger

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Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2005, 04:44:02 PM »
Quote

"A better way of doing things" - Isn't it better to have memory protection than not? "Their desire to bring AmigaOS to the the cutting edge" - Adding memory protection is helping to get that desire fullfilled. One step at a time...

Why all this memory protection comments, didnt you read the article??  It has nothing to do with Memory Protection, in fact the phrase memory protection never shows up in the entire article.  Its hard to take your arguements seriously when we are talking about a Memory Allocation article and you decide we are talking about Memory protection.

Quote

So you're saying SLAB wasn't a technical innovation?

No, I'm saying putting slab in AmigaOS in 2005 isnt a technical innovation.  But you know that, you are just arguing.   Slab is an old concept its used in lots of OSs (including Windows).  Rubber tires were a technical innovation at one time on cars, putting rubber tires on a car these days is not a technical innovation.  If I wrote that my car had the technical innovation of rubber tires, you'd think that was silly.  If Hyperion writes that they have implemented the technical innovation of slab memory management, you dance around excited.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: Memory Management in AmigaOS4.0 Explained
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2005, 05:00:51 PM »
Quote

Okay, so you are say that Amiga OS 4.0 is the only current OS that is using this nearly 40 year old idea?

No, in fact if you were reading the thread you'd see I pointed out that most OS's use this method.

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So, that would make Window one of the only true modern cutting edge inovative OSs!

Well it uses Slab too, so using Hyperion logic, apparently it is cutting edge and super innovative, of course it and I believe all of the others that actually use it, were designed to use it from the start, not trying to shoehorn it in ala what Hyperion is trying to do with AmigaOS.
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