Support for new TV card models: MM CD Update 1.26

[tjaoz]

@Trev

The Mediator PCI 1200 shipped in September 2000, just three months before Nvidia's acquisition of 3dfx was announced. 3dfx had been in decline for quite some time, and Nvidia would have been working with 3dfx on acquisition details well before an official announcement was made.

Elbox had also to work on drivers before the Mediator release.

Anyway, first were the Mediator 2D drivers for Voodoo, and only then Nvidia took over 3dfx. Voodoo 3 was one of the best PCI graphic card at that time. Nothing strange that Elbox chose Voodoo 3.

3dfx stopped licensing its technology after the release of the Voodoo 2. They were especially closelipped about Glide, their 3D API, and quite reticent with regard to their software and hardware interface in general.

Why would 3dfx break with tradition and license their technology to Elbox? I just don't see it happening.

As you are reffering to 3dfx Glide and their 3D API, you should know that Voodoo3 3D drivers for Mediator were written by Hyperion, not by Elbox.
 
Are you saying then, that Hyperion Voodoo3 drivers "are almost certainly based on stolen intellectual property?" :-o

And really, this isn't trolling. It's just an open discussion. It's not like I'm proclaiming the v1r7u3s of one PCI solution over another. I'm just criticizing Elbox's abuse of the market and lack of support for current video cards.

If you check the Mediator Driver Guide by Elbox, you will see well over 200 PCI cards supported in Mediator. Why did you choose Elbox to criticise then?

Because they have written many more drivers than other Amiga producers?  

In other news, the SharkPPC will begin production in January 2001

Do you blame Elbox that OS4 is not ready yet? :-o

[Trev]

Can't...stop...responding. ;-)

Obviously, Elbox spent time before the Mediator release working on drivers. If they did all the work themselves, kudos. I'd still like to see support for more video cards on the Mediator. Calling the Voodoo 3 "one of the best PCI graphic card at that time" is subjective, and we welcome your opinion; however, I disagree. Matrox has been the undisputed leader in 2D image quality since the release of the first Millennium card. ATI and Nvidia implementers have only recently begun closing the gap. (Please note that I'm only talking about the consumer and low-end corporate markets.)

It's possible that Hyperion used leaked source code. I did note that this was purely speculation on my part. I do have more respect for Hyperion than I do for Elbox. No one wants to admit it, but the Amiga market is focused on hobbyists, and hobbyists want open solutions. That's not what Elbox offers, and that's had an impact on my opinion (I repeat, *my* opinion) of Elbox in general.

With respect to the SharkPPC, I was just making a joke. Announcing the imminent release of a product three to four years in advance is pretty typical in the Amiga community.

Trev

[Rob]

@ Trev

I want solutions that work.  The Mediator works for me.

I would probably given up on Amiga some time ago had it not been for
the Voodoo 3 sat inside my A1200T.

By the way do you actually own a Mediator?

[Trev]

Ugh. Did anyone actually read my comments? Yes, the Mediator works. Yes, it meets the needs of some users in the Amiga community. I just find it funny that Elbox hasn't put forth the effort (publicly) to write drivers for a wider range of display and network adapters. Instead, they focus their efforts on supporting yet another series of TV tuners. It's sad.

No, I don't own a Mediator. I won't buy a hardware product that doesn't at least sponsor an open (i.e. no NDA required) developer program.

Again, this is just my opinion. Everyone else is welcome to theirs. You think?

Incidentally, I have similar feelings towards OpenPCI, which, in its own way, is just as closed as Elbox. Sometimes it's embarassing to be an Amiga user. You'd think a market as small as ours could find common ground, especially for something as trivial as a PCI bus library. If Elbox isn't willing to develop the drivers, then they should let projects such as OpenPCI move forward on their platform instead of requiring developers to sign an NDA for a closed library.

Trev

[Rob]

OpenPCI doesn't seem to offer any drivers for devices that Elbox don't
already support and I don't see any drivers for graphics cards in
developement.

To be honest there is not much point in supporting newer graphics
cards for the Mediator As the Voodoo's performance is strangled by the
Amiga's data bus.  Of course if Amiga dealers can't source Voodoo
cards any longer then new graphics drivers will be necessary but there
will be no performance advantage.

[B00tDisk]

Do you blame Elbox that OS4 is not ready yet?

Wow, step turn and dodge.  Elbox coudln't be bothered to get a development system and at least start finding out how to get OS4 running with a shark?  At all?  No investigation done at least?  Just this "OS4 isn't ready yet!" (Despite 1000+ users already having it on their desktop?)

Incidentally, I notice that to this day there's no picture of the Son...er, "Shark" accellerator so I thought I'd provide one:





 :-D  :-D  :-D

[Rob]

@Bootdisk

If Elbox did send Hyperion a SharkPPC it would still sit there waiting
until OS4 final is out for A1 before they start work on a Shark
version. I think BlizzardPPC may also be a priority over the SharkPPC.

Elbox are not a big company if they had produced SharkPPC a year ago
no one would have bought because there was no OS4 for it and Elbox
would probably be bankrupt by know.

However Hyperion a confident that once OS4 final is ready for A1,
porting to other Amiga platforms should be straight forward and less
time consuming.

We will as always have to wait for now.

[Trev]

OpenPCI doesn't seem to offer any drivers for devices that Elbox don't already support and I don't see any drivers for graphics cards in
developement.

The OpenPCI and Picasso96 SDKs are hard to get through official channels, so this isn't surprising.

To be honest there is not much point in supporting newer graphics cards for the Mediator As the Voodoo's performance is strangled by the Amiga's data bus. Of course if Amiga dealers can't source Voodoo cards any longer then new graphics drivers will be necessary but there will be no performance advantage.

Ah! You've touched on my point. Banshee, Voodoo 3, and VSA-100 cards are getting harder to find. Performance isn't really the issue, at least with respect to 2D. I'd like to see support for the Matrox Millennium II (because I have lots of them) and the GeForce 4 MX (because PCI cards based on this chipset are still readily available), but grassroots development for the Mediator is a lost cause, and I can't use a Prometheus (no Zorro III).

Trev

[Kronos]

Unbelievable that there are still people who are naive enough to take the Shark for real.....


If Elbox had a working Shark, why didn't they ever show it running Linux or any function-test ?
And if they don't have that, how would they know wether it works ?

All academic, since there is simply no sane way to make a PPC attached to a PCI-bus access the Amiga-chipset lying behind the Voddoo-RAM-window in an even remotly compatible way.

[B00tDisk]

Poster: Kronos  Posted: 2004/9/19 22:16:06

Unbelievable that there are still people who are naive enough to take the Shark for real.....


If Elbox had a working Shark, why didn't they ever show it running Linux or any function-test ?
And if they don't have that, how would they know wether it works ?

All academic, since there is simply no sane way to make a PPC attached to a PCI-bus access the Amiga-chipset lying behind the Voddoo-RAM-window in an even remotly compatible way.

Indeed.  If the card works at all, it will have to with it's own DMA, hard drive controller, and RAM, with sound, network, video, USB etc. addressed through the PCI bus, reducing the Amiga to nothing more than a power supply housing with attached mouse and keyboard.  IOW: An expensive A1-like.

[tjaoz]

@Trev

I'd like to see support for the Matrox Millennium II (because I have lots of them) and the GeForce 4 MX (because PCI cards based on this chipset are still readily available), but  grassroots development for the Mediator is a lost cause,

Have you forgotten what you wrote in your previous comment? Here it is: "I won't buy a hardware product that doesn't at least sponsor an open (i.e. no NDA required) developer program."

So why do you list here NVidia cards (GeForce 4 MX)?
Give us all a link to the site where documentation for NVidia cards is available without NDA?
Don't you know NVidia is very closed about making the documentation for these cards available?

Graphic card producers often do not make available the proper documentation to their products, but even authors of Amiga systems do not make their documentation available (e.g. CGX, P96 or Warp3D) even if you are willing to sign the NDA. MediatorSDK you can have if you sign NDA with Elbox.

Stop trooling, Trev.
It looks that you have more reasons to complain about NVidia, CGX, P96 or Warp3D Teams than about Elbox. :-)

[tjaoz]

@Kronos

All academic, since there is simply no sane way to make a PPC attached to a PCI-bus access the Amiga-chipset lying behind the Voddoo-RAM-window in an even remotly compatible way.

What you write about is a restriction of  _turbo cards_ for A1200.  When you disconnect the turbo card, these restrictions disappear. Amiga 1200 motherboard allows Direct Memory Access to its hardware, right?
 
If a A1200 turbo card is to remain in place, access to the mainboard chipset can be provided by the 68k processor of the turbo card. Simple additional software for 68k processor can set it as a slave processor providing SharkPPC accesses to the chipset of the A1200 mainboard. Is it so complicated for you?

In Amiga 3000 and 4000 such restrictions do not exists at all, even with the installed current processor card, the PowerPC PCI card has direct access to the mainboard chipset.

[Trev]

You're right tjaoz. OpenPCI and Picasso96 are closed, and according to the authors, it's because of Elbox. Personally, I think it's because of unrealistic expectations. You can't work full-time on an Amiga product and expect to make a decent living. It's sad, and it's unfortunate (especially for good folks like Redrumloa and Jens Schoenfeld), but it's the truth.

And tjaoz, you could play nice and voice your opinions without name calling. I respect your right to your opinion. Please respect mine.

With respect to Nvidia, yes they are protective of their intellectual property, and in today's PC graphics market, it's justified. However, information about Nvidia chipsets is readily available in the open source community.

Would anyone be interested in a Picasso96 driver for SVGA compatible PCI display adapters? I'd like to write one for both OpenPCI and pci.library and make it open source. The Amiga community needs a serious kick in the ass with respsect to market expectations. :-)

Trev

EDITED: Removed two comments about Picasso96 and OpenPCI that really weren't fair to their authors. D'oh!

[tjaoz]

@Trev

OpenPCI and Picasso96 are closed, and according to the authors, it's because of Elbox.

:lol:  

And those hurricanes attacking America also come from Elbox?

How is it that Picasso 96 team has not made available their documentation since 1996 for developers who want to write drivers for new graphic cards? Is it really because of Elbox?  :-o

And tjaoz, you could play nice and voice your opinions without name calling. I respect your right to your opinion. Please respect mine.

You say it's too few drivers, but you address it to those people who wrote the largest number of drivers.
You say about IP suggesting its theft in writing 3D drivers for Voodoo cards, but you write it against a company who did not write these 3D drivers, etc...

Isn't it trolling, Trev?

With respect to Nvidia, yes they are protective of their intellectual property, and in today's PC graphics market, it's justified.

Go on please...  Some companies are entitled to protect their IP and others are not?

However, information about Nvidia chipsets is readily available in the open source community.

Aha? Give but a single link where NVidia chipset documentation is available.

Isn't it so that drivers for NVidia cards for Linux are prepared _solely_ by NVidia, and their key elements (those, which are responsible for access to chipset registers) are available _only_ as precompiled libraries, without source codes?

Would anyone be interested in a Picasso96 driver for SVGA compatible PCI display adapters? I'd like to write one for both OpenPCI and pci.library and make it open source, but the owners of those three products aren't keen on letting people use their SDKs without $$$, l337 skillz, or an NDA, respectively.

What's your problem?  
According to your own words in your country disassembling is legal under some conditions. So, you do not need to pay or sign anything. Show us your knowledge and prepare one single driver for any graphic chipset, which is not supported in Amiga so far.

Good luck!

[Trev]

I don't think I mentioned 3D drivers anywhere in my initial comments. You brought it up. Elbox developed Picasso96 drivers without licensing Picasso96, so what would lead me to believe they licensed technology from 3dfx? I'm only interested in Picasso96 compatible 2D drivers.

The largest number of drivers? Elbox wrote two, the OpenPCI crew (or someone else--I don't know who) wrote one. Yes, things are really heating up in the race to provide display drivers for Amiga PCI busboards.

Isn't it so that drivers for NVidia cards for Linux are prepared _solely_ by NVidia, and their key elements (those, which are responsible for access to chipset registers) are available _only_ as precompiled libraries, without source codes?

Objection. Leading the witness. But I'll answer anyway. No, it's not true: http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/drivers/nv/

My words? You're welcome to browse the US Code (courtesy of Cornell) and US Copyright Office web sites.

Dude. Why are you being such an asshole? Why not try to be helpful instead? Aren't we both Amiga users? [Putting on my tjaoz hat.] You're obviously just a troll who loves Elbox and doesn't give a {bleep} about anyone other than himself. (Please forgive me if American sarcasm doesn't translate well in your society.) ;-)

[tjaoz]

@Trev

I don't think I mentioned 3D drivers anywhere in my initial comments. You brought it up.

Unfortunately, it is you who mentioned there 3dfx Glide and their 3D API.
See your post of 2004/9/15 21:18 Updated 2004/9/15 22:12

The largest number of drivers? Elbox wrote two, the OpenPCI crew (or someone else--I don't
know who) wrote one. Yes, things are really heating up in the race to provide display drivers for Amiga PCI busboards.

Do you have problems with counting? Elbox wrote two drivers? Check here to see all the available drivers for Mediator.

Objection. Leading the witness. But I'll answer anyway. No, it's not true:
http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/drivers/nv/

I didn't ask you to give a link to linux sources, but to give but a single link where NVidia chipset
documentation is available. Can you give such a link?

Why are you being such an asshole? Why not try to be helpful instead? Aren't we both Amiga
users? [Putting on my tjaoz hat.] You're obviously just a troll who loves Elbox and doesn't give a {bleep} about anyone other than himself. (Please forgive me if American sarcasm doesn't translate well in your society.)

 
As you wrote, you are not a Mediator user. What is a reason of your anti-Elbox trolling here?

If you have lots of Matrox Millenium II cards and you need drivers for them, get up your ass and write these drivers instead of barking at Elbox. Opsss..., sorry..., it not so easy as trolling here...  :lol: